The Mystery of Faith… at Being Frank

Nov

The Mystery of Faith…

By Filia Day 29 Comments

Categories: Being Frank...

In recent times there has been a lot of discussion around standing or kneeling during the Eucharistic Prayer at Mass. The NZ Catholic in fact ran a small article about it not so long ago, where Michael Otto (the journalist) quoted the usual argument put forward by people who are in favour of standing during the Eucharistic Prayer:

“Kneeling during the Eucharistic Prayer is a practice that developed in some countries when people’s involvement in the Mass focussed more on devotion to the Blessed Sacrament than on the meaning of the Eucharistic Prayer. The Second Vatican Council wanted to redress this.”

Let’s critically analyse the ideas which are expressed in this paragraph – which are often put forward in certain circles regarding this topic – and on which I have some reservations.

“Kneeling during the Eucharistic Prayer is a practice that developed in some countries when people’s involvement in the Mass focussed more on devotion to the Blessed Sacrament than on the meaning of the Eucharistic Prayer.”

What is implied here?

Devotion of the Blessed Sacrament leads to kneeling

Properly understanding the meaning of the Eucharistic Prayer (and thus Mass) leads to standing

That is what is implied. These are two different things according to this line of thought, and these are almost put at odds with each other in the way that this is written and presented. It implies that previously (the MiddleAges up to Vat II) there was a time where the Mass was defectively understood and included a type of over-devotion to the Blessed Sacrament – producing kneeling. Thus, kneeling is a result/product of a defective understanding (let’s all acknowledge that there were indeed some faithful, prior to Vatican II who didn’t understand Mass very well, but let’s also acknowledge that kneeling has been around since Biblical times. In fact, many of our contemporaries, see kneeling purely as an outward sign of penitence, and mortification, and have lost the deeper meaning of it, which is adoration, humility, child-likeness, littleness, awe, reverence and love).

According to this particular view, we have now emerged from this because we have now recovered and restored a deeper understanding of the Eucharist, and this has led to standing being implimented.

Put another way: kneeling is a sign of a misunderstanding of Mass involving a quasi-immature and under-developed appreciation of what is going on, especially during the Eucharistic Prayer; standing signifies intelligence, understanding, and maturity; and therefore orthodoxy (right practice).

To me, this is a false dichotomy – a false split of things which are inherently connected, and arises from a dialectical (and thus purely opinionated historical) way of looking at the high point of the Mass: ie, the offering of the Risen Christ to the Father – the representation of the Victory (including the Resurrection and Ascension) of Jesus’ sacrifice of Calvary – during the Canon – for the living, for the dead, for the Church, for our salvation, etc. It also suggests to me a confusion and misunderstanding of the essential nature of that part of the Mass.

Basically, devotion, love, adoration, and reverence, expressed through kneeling, for the Blessed Sacrament (ie, Jesus who has just descended onto the altar), is a deep manifestation of an authentic understanding of what is being expressed in the Eucharistic Prayer, and remembered (memoria, anamnesis) through it. That memorial (properly understood) of the Church, is made possible by the Communion in the Holy Spirit, Who is poured out from Christ’s Glorified Eucharistic Body everytime the Church celebrates the Eucharist, and by this She is regenerated and reinvigorated in the same Spirit. This is made possible by Christ’s Eucharistic offering to the Father, on the altars of the Church; and the fruits of that One Offering are in turn offered to us: communion with Jesus in the Holy Spirit as He nourishes our soul, and bathes us in His Love. By this, we are incorporated more deeply into this union with Christ, through the Holy Spirit.

How is it that we encounter (and therefore understand more deeply) what the Eucharistic Prayer, especially the Roman Canon (Eucharistic Prayer I) prays and expresses? Precisely by looking to the Eucharistic Mystery – that of the Bread and Wine changing into the Body and Blood of Christ, and by concomitance, His Soul and Divinity are also present. If He is present substantially in His Risen and Glorified Body on the altar, then we have present in this Heavenly Bread, the mystery of Redemption: Incarnation, Passion, Death, Resurrection and Acsension. The Eucharistic Prayer is principally focussed on making present that Mystery – through sacramental memoria; and where is the locus of that Mystery as we enter into the memoria of it – the Eucharistic Species! It is through, with, and in this Mystery (Christ substantially present), that the Canon draws its power and meaning! And hence it is eminently and utterly fitting to kneel in awe and love of that Mystery of Love becoming present amongst us at every Mass; and by which the entire Church is renewed and regenerated!

This is why, in the Mysterium Fidei – the Mystery of Faith (Acclamation of Faith) after the consecration (in the Novus Ordo), we are supposed to sing or proclaim that Mystery in the second person, ie, “You have died, You have Risen, You will come again…”. This has now been theologically fixed in the up-coming Third Edition of the Roman Missal to be published next year. The acclamation of the Mystery of Faith is not some abstract look back in the third person to 2 thousand years ago when Jesus died on calvary (eg, Christ has died, Christ has Risen, etc), but through the sacramental memoria, it acclaims Him who is present on the altar, and in Whom is present, the mystery of the incarnation, passion, death, Resurrection, and Ascension. This is the Msytery of Faith, the transubstantiated Eucharistic Risen Lord, in Whom the Mystery of Redemption is present, and by Whom we have access to it.

There should be no difference or separation between understanding the meaning of the Eucharistic Prayer, and devotion (implying adoration and love) of the Blessed Sacrament when a person kneels at Mass. Understanding the Canon properly leads to a deeper love and reverence of our Eucharistic Lord, and that is why the Latin rite developed (and still intends to keep) its tradition of kneeling during the Consecration and during the Eucharistic Prayer (Canon) to adore and worship the Mystery of Him who will and has become present before us: firstly to be offered to the Father, by the Church, for our redemption; and Who is then secondarily offered to us, in the form of spiritual food.

“The Second Vatican Council wanted to redress this.”

I have read that documents of the Second Vatican Council, and have read many of the subsequent post-Conciliar documents, and there is nothing in the documents at all saying that the “Council wanted to redress” kneeling. This is inaccurate. The Council wanted to redress the ignorance that many faithful had in not understanding the Mass deeply enough. That did not mean wanting to get rid of kneeling.

Share and Enjoy:

29 Responses to “The Mystery of Faith…”

Feed for this Entry View blog reactions

1 NZC Editor Nov 19th, 2009 at 12:57 pm

Filia,

Do you have the date of the article you reference? We’ve found a story from May with the first sentence of the quote, which was actually taken from a letter Bishop Peter Cullinane of Palmerston North wrote and attributed to him.

The second part, about Vatican II wanting to redress that, doesn’t appear in that story. Are we missing something or looking at the wrong edition?

Thanks,
Gavin
2 Chris Sullivan Nov 19th, 2009 at 1:56 pm

There is some confusion on this, especially when people are not clear to specify exactly when they think kneeling ought to

occur.

From Bp Cullinane’s pastoral letter on standing during the eucharistic prayer (not just during the consecration):-

Kneeling during the Eucharistic Prayer is a practice that developed in some countries
when people’s involvement in the Mass focussed more on devotion to the Blessed
Sacrament than on the meaning of the Eucharistic Prayer. The Second Vatican Council
wanted to redress this. Even after the practice of kneeling developed, the liturgical books
(the General Instruction for the Roman Missal) always continued to name the ancient
practice of standing as the posture for the Eucharistic Prayer.

http://www.dyc.net.nz/dox/Bishops/Posture%20Eucharistic%20Prayer%20revised%20Nov%202008.pdf

The General Instruction on the Roman Missal defines the postures :-

21. For the sake of uniformity in movement and posture, the people should follow the directions given during the celebration by the deacon, the priest, or another minister. Unless other provision is made, at every Mass the people should stand from the beginning of the entrance song or when the priest enters until the end of the opening prayer or collect; for the singing of the Alleluia before the gospel; while the gospel is proclaimed; during the profession of faith and the general intercessions; from the prayer over the gifts to the end of the Mass, except at the places indicated later in this paragraph. They should sit during the readings before the gospel and during the responsorial psalm, for the homily and the presentation of the gifts, and, if this seems helpful, during the period of silence after communion.

They should kneel at the consecration unless prevented by the lack of space, the number of people present, or some other good reason.

But it is up to the conference of bishops to adapt the actions and postures described in the Order of the Roman Mass to the customs of the people. But the conference must make sure that such adaptations correspond to the meaning and character of each part of the celebration.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/GIRM.HTM

This has been modified in the UK, USA and Australian versions to specify kneeling from the end of the Sanctus to the end of

the Great Amen :-

At its meeting in November, 1969, the National Conference of Catholic Bishops voted that in general, the directives of the “Roman Missal” concerning the posture of the congregation at Mass should be left unchanged, but that no. 21 of the “General Instruction” should be adapted so that the people kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic prayer, that is, before the Lord’s Prayer.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/GIRMALL.HTM

The resulting USA version of the GIRM reads:

43. The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance chant, or while the priest
approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia chant before the Gospel; while
the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Prayer of the Faithful;
from the invitation, Orate, fratres (Pray, brethren), before the prayer over the offerings until the
end of Mass, except at the places indicated below.
They should, however, sit while the readings before the Gospel and the responsorial Psalm are
proclaimed and for the homily and while the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory is taking
place; and, as circumstances allow, they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after
Communion is observed.

In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or
recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on
occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other
good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects
after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop
determines otherwise.

With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the
faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to
whatever is indicated in the Missal.

http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current/GIRM.pdf

A 1978 Notice Of The Sacred Congregation For Divine Worship And The Discipline Of The Sacraments clarified

Query 2: In liturgical assemblies there is a great variety of gestures and postures during a celebration. For example, should the people: a. stand during the prayer over the gifts; b. kneel after the “Sanctus” and during the entire eucharistic prayer; c. sit after communion?

Reply: As usual the GIRM gives simple rules to solve these questions (GIRM no. 21):

a. The people stand while the presidential prayers are being said, therefore, during the prayer over the gifts.

b. Thy also stand throughout the eucharistic prayer, except the consecration. The practice is for the faithful to remain kneeling from the epiclesis before the consecration until the memorial acclamation after it.

c. The people may sit during the silence after communion. The points determined are in no way to be considered trivial, since their purpose is to ensure uniformity in posture in the assembly celebrating the eucharist as a manifestation of the community’s unity in faith and worship. The people often give the impression immediately after the “Sanctus” and even more often after the consecration by their diverse postures that they are unmindful of being participants in the Church’s liturgy, which is the supreme action of a community and not a time for individuals to isolate themselves in acts of private devotion: Not 14 (1978)

300-301, no. 1.

Query 3: In some places kneelers have been taken out of the churches. Thus, the people can only stand or sit and this detracts from the reverence and adoration due to the eucharist.

Reply: The appointments of a place of worship have some relationship to the customs of the particular locale. For example, in the East there are carpets; in the Roman basilicas, only since modern times, there are usually chairs without kneelers, so as to accommodate large crowds. There is nothing to prevent the faithful from kneeling on the floor to show their adoration, no matter how uncomfortable this may be. In cases where kneeling is not possible (see GIRM no. 21), a deep bow and a respectful bearing are signs of the reverence and adoration to be shown at the time of the consecration and communion: Not 14 (1978) 302-303, no. 4.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/GIRMALL.HTM

In summary, Bp Cullinane is right that standing is the correct posture throughout the eucharistic prayer, except the consecration.

Hope this helps.

God Bless
3 dave morgan Nov 19th, 2009 at 4:47 pm

howdy cobbers,

i’ll add a few comments – haha, i always do

chris, yes, it is acceptable to stand at certain moments of the canon, and in the east, during the anaphora (their equivalent to the eucharistic prayer) they stand a lot. so standing itself is not a problem during certain moments of the prayer.

but during the consecration it is required in the latin rite, as an outward sign of reverence, adoration, and love, for the mystery that is being miraculously accomplished before us on the altar (like filia day has already mentioned). this is why the priest is required to genuflect (a type of kneel) immediately after the consecration, in adoration of the Lord who has become present, we, as faithful are expected to do the same

in most western countries, we kneel from the end of the sanctus, or from the moment of the epiclesis (calling down of the Holy Spirit upon the gifts) until the end of the great doxology (amen). the Church has been very clear that where these are the customs of the local region, they are to be retained. that is the mind of the church, even if the law allows some exceptions. we have to try to look at this theologically, not just judicially, to understand the church’s mind, and heart on this matter. why is it that for about 1200 years, everybody everywhere in the Latin rite, knelt for the entirety of the canon? there are good reasons for this

Sacramentum Caritatis
Pope Benedict XVI

Reverence for the Eucharist

65. A convincing indication of the effectiveness of eucharistic catechesis is surely an increased sense of the mystery of God present among us. This can be expressed in concrete outward signs of reverence for the Eucharist which the process of mystagogy should inculcate in the faithful. I am thinking in general of the importance of gestures and posture, such as kneeling during the central moments of the Eucharistic Prayer. Amid the legitimate diversity of signs used in the context of different cultures, everyone should be able to experience and express the awareness that at each celebration we stand before the infinite majesty of God, who comes to us in the lowliness of the sacramental signs.

now, bishop peter’s diocese is a good example of a confusion and misapplication of these norms in this area. everything you have quoted demonstrates that kneeling IS TO BE KEPT at the consecration, even if standing is allowed at other moments where it is the accepted and approved custom. in nz, the custom, ever since the faith arrived here (in both the extraordinary and ordinary form of the Roman rite), is to kneel from the sanctus to the amen. i believe that is the approved custom here in nz by the bishop’s conference (but i may be wrong here). maybe somebody could correct me

but in bishop peter’s diocese, kneelers have been systematically and intentionally removed from almost every single parish, precisely to deliberately prohibit kneeling, or make it so uncomfortable, or to make it publicly embarrassing, that people won’t do it, or end up losing the practise – under the dubious pretence of ‘it’s more appropriate to stand during the Eucharistic Prayer, because it corresponds more to the meaning, and we want to establish our own local custom’.

one can see here, that in fact, while standing is allowed generally speaking, in palmerston north, where bishop peter governs, kneeling is not tolerated at all, and has been deliberately removed – hence bishop peter’s words above. he thinks that kneeling is just a historical addition that should be removed – and would have standing throughout. cardinal ratzinger, in his book ’spirit of the liturgy’ clearly demonstrates that kneeling is from biblical origins, and is not a medieval accretion

so, in the end, whilst bringing in standing as a liturgical novelty in nz, kneeling disappears, and everybody ends up thinking that standing is more appropriate during the canon – when kneeling is in fact our custom here in nz – and is absolutely required during the consecration. no wonder people don’t have much respect for the mass anymore

so, i can see why filia has brought this up. it is something which has been twisted and misused. the diocese of palmerston north, and other parishes around the country, have tried to install their own local custom, when it never has been our custom in this country – except disobedience and maverick local gestures: eg, the illicit implementation of the our father, which, by the way, is about to be reversed in the coming years these types of gestures seem to be our customary approach

even when it is ok in itself to stand (which we all accept is ok for certain moments), it is not explained properly, and kneeling ends up getting removed completely through bad practice. mt albert parish in auckland is like this. kneelers got deliberately removed by a past parish priest, so that people can’t really kneel very well (the pews are quite high) at the consecration; and then bit by bit every body just ends up standing throughout the entire liturgy of the Eucharist. the current parish-priest does nothing about it, or can’t due to the political climate in the parish; and when people do kneel, like many of the immigrant indians who still have the right sense and understanding, they can’t see a thing and can’t pray very well at that moment, because of all the ignorant sheepish whities who stand, not knowing any better, or do so out of an ideological position against kneeling

one can see that the law (allowance for standing at certain moments) is being used against good liturgical practise, in order to remove other liturgical practices, that some people have issue with

i’m sure bishop peter is a good guy, and does a good job (no beef with him ), but i’m not sure that this move to remove all kneelers is truly catholically minded

as catholics, we can disagree on these things, at a practical level

anyway, that’s my understanding of things

hope I’ve made some sense somewhere :oops:

peace bruvvas
4 Chris Sullivan Nov 19th, 2009 at 7:56 pm

Anyone know if standing during the consecration is the norm in any of the 22 other rites in the Catholic Church ?

I know our Roman tradition is to kneel, and I think we should keep that, but I understand others have an ancient tradition of standing, which is their way of showing reverence.

God Bless
5 lux et veritas Nov 19th, 2009 at 9:23 pm

Anyone know if Palmerston North, Mt Albert etc… are from the FIVE other rites in the Catholic Church? (NOT 22, there are 22 Eastern Catholic Churches)

The answer is they are not. If they were it would be appropriate that they followed the norms of those Rites, but as they are not it is appropriate that they

Many of the eastern catholic rites do not kneel on Sundays, but do kneel (or usually prostrate themselves) during weekdays. Without these practices (prostration and kneeling on weekdays, among other things) of reverence for the Eucharist in PN and other Churches, it is a pretty long stretch to suggest that the majority (or any) of the congregations stand out of the same reverence that Eastern Catholics stand and Latin Catholics kneel.

Pax
6 Chris Sullivan Nov 19th, 2009 at 9:36 pm

Some useful background material from Bp Cullinane is online at

http://www.dyc.net.nz/dox/Bishops/Posture%20in%20the%20Eucharistic%20Prayer%20-%20Memo%20to%20parishes.pdf

God Bless
7 Dei Verbum Nov 19th, 2009 at 10:23 pm

I heard B Cullinane was retiring. Is that likely to be sooner rather than later?
8 FXD Nov 20th, 2009 at 8:17 am

A couple of months ago I was in the Cathedral of the Palmerston North diocese for Mass over a weekend.

The actual situation on the ground there is this:

- the congregation stands for the duration of the Eucharistic Prayer
- nobody kneels for the consecration, they remain standing
- there was no bow, or other gesture of reverence, at the point of consecration

For all the posturing on this issue, the reality seems to defy the points detailed in Chris’ link in post #6.

And, let us remember, kneeling is the custom in this country, and has been since the arrival of the Faith on these shores. It is, as the GIRM states, ‘laudably retained’. Not so, it seems, in some dioceses, where it has been ‘recently jettisoned’.

Far from laudable.
9 dave morgan Nov 20th, 2009 at 12:41 pm

howdy cobbers,

related to this topic, i noticed something in the first reading today

1 Maccabees 4:36-37,52-59

Judas and his brothers said, ‘Now that our enemies have been defeated, let us go up to purify the sanctuary and dedicate it.’ So they marshalled the whole army, and went up to Mount Zion. On the twenty-fifth of the ninth month, Chislev, in the year one hundred and forty-eight, they rose at dawn and offered a lawful sacrifice on the new altar of holocausts which they had made. The altar was dedicated, to the sound of zithers, harps and cymbals, at the same time of year and on the same day on which the pagans had originally profaned it. The whole people fell prostrate in adoration, praising to the skies him who had made them so successful. For eight days they celebrated the dedication of the altar, joyfully offering holocausts, communion sacrifices and thanksgivings. They ornamented the front of the Temple with crowns and bosses of gold, repaired the gates and the storerooms and fitted them with doors. There was no end to the rejoicing among the people, and the reproach of the pagans was lifted from them. Judas, with his brothers and the whole assembly of Israel, made it a law that the days of the dedication of the altar should be celebrated yearly at the proper season, for eight days beginning on the twenty-fifth of the month Chislev, with rejoicing and gladness.

all through the old testament and new testament, prostration and kneeling as an outward sign of adoration and worship is set forth, and promoted, and witnessed to. it’s also in the book of revelation

i do think that this resistence to kneeling emerges from a lack of understanding of adoration, and even possibly a lack of humility, something pushed by the devil in behind the scenes

adoration is the natural response in human beings to the gratuity of God in His providential love shown forth in creation, in wanting to hand oneself back to the Creator, and recognise that everything good comes from Him, and that we are completely dependant upon Him. it finds it best expression through a bodily form of prayer. it is the interior spirit of the person wanting to recognise the goodness and love and absolute sovereign rights of the Creator over us, and in this uses the whole body to pray and worship and adore. it is actually an aspect of justice towards the Creator, and in fact, traditionally, the natural virtue of religion is seen as a dimension of the virtue of justice: to render to God what is due to Him, from His creatures: adoration, devotion, sacrifice, all motivated by natural love, and this is epxressed through an outward bodily gesture of littleness and humility

christian adoration is a graced adoration, made possible by the absolutely free gift of Christ – which elevates in into a participation in the divine life of God Himself. it is adoration of the Father, in Spirit and Truth; with, in, and through Jesus. it takes natural adoration, and elevates it to a level not possible through normal human means. it is adoration by grace, where we adore God in the Holy Spirit, who dwells within us. this adoration is principally offered, and finds it source and summit in and at the Mass – the liturgy: all christian adoration flows out of the Mass, and back into it. because it is there, that we are grafted more deeply into Jesus’ perfect act of adoration of the Father, on the Cross. Jesus, in his humanity, has worshipped the Father in Spirit and Truth; and there we are given access, through that Eucharisitc offering, to worship and adore in like manner, as members of Him.

The Devil Has No Knees

According to Abba Apollo, a desert father who lived about 1,700 years ago, the devil has no knees; he cannot kneel; he cannot adore; he cannot pray; he can only look down his nose in contempt. Being unwilling to bend the knee at the name of Jesus is the essence of evil. (Cf. Is 45:23, Rom 14:11) But when we kneel at Jesus’ name, when we bow down in service of others, and when we bend the knee in adoration, we are following in the footsteps of the Magi, we are imitating Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta, Saint Maximilian Kolbe, and all the saints and angels in heaven.

In the Psalms, kneeling and bowing is mentioning all through…

“Come, let us bow down and worship. Let us kneel before the Lord who made us”. (Psalm 95)

Cardinal Ranjith, November, 2007:
(was secretary of the Congregation for Divine Worship)

“I mention, for example, a change not proposed by the Council Fathers or by the Sacrosanctum Concilium, Holy Communion received in the hand. This has contributed to some extent to a weakening of faith in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. This, and the removal of altar rails and kneelers in church and the introduction of practices which oblige the faithful to sit or stand at the elevation of the Sacred Host, weakens the genuine significance of the Eucharist and the Church’s profound sense of adoration for the Lord, the Only Son of God.”

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, 2000:
in The Spirit of the Liturgy

“There are groups, of no small influence, who are trying to talk us out of kneeling. ‘It doesn’t suit our culture’, they say (which culture?), ‘It’s not right for a grown man to do this — he should face God on his feet’. The kneeling of Christians is not a form of inculturation into existing customs. It is quite the opposite, an expression of Christian culture, which transforms the existing culture through a new and deeper knowledge and experience of God. Kneeling does not come from any culture — it comes from the Bible and its knowledge of God…[...]…The Christian Liturgy is a cosmic Liturgy precisely because it bends the knee before the crucified and exalted Lord. Here is the center of authentic culture – the culture of truth. The humble gesture by which we fall at the feet of the Lord inserts us into the true path of life of the cosmos.”

Cardinal Ratzinger also speaks (see just above in this post) of a …

“…story that comes from the sayings of the Desert Fathers, according to which the devil was compelled by God to show himself to a certain Abba Apollo. He looked black and ugly, with frightening thin limbs, but, most strikingly, he had no knees. The inability to kneel is seen as the very essence of the diabolical.”

On this link below, there is a full excerpt of Cardinal Ratzinger’s theology of kneeling, where he goes through and looks at it from bibical sources, and develops its christological and cosmological dimensions, and also speaks of other influences.

Notice how this webpage (link below) addresses a similar quote as that from bishop peter (not his, but another’s), then quotes cardinal ratzinger from spirit of the liturgy in response

have a read to see how ratzinger’s thought unfolds, and gives the truth of the matter
this is really worth reading

http://coo-eesfromthecloister.blogspot.com/2008/06/stupid-quote-of-week-no-really-stupid.html

peace bruvvas
10 the enthusiastic border-collie Nov 20th, 2009 at 2:39 pm

From #2.
“In summary, Bp Cullinane is right that standing is the correct posture throughout the eucharistic prayer, except the consecration.”

That’s nice but why is it that Bsp Cullinane’s diocese (Central North Is., PNth) STANDS through the CONSECRATION as well as the rest of the Eucharistic prayer??

I also do not understand the distinction between the blessed Sacrament at Benediction and the blessed Sacrament at Mass. Are they different?

Maybe they are different. That would explain why noone genuflects in the central North Island and noone bends their neck in any gesture of respect.

It is curious when parishes are inundated by outsiders as happened at the PN Cathedral a few months ago when High School athletes were in town. The Aucklanders, Wellingtonians, Dunedinites and Cantabrians all kneeled and the Palmy hosts (outnumbered) were left standing like parochial plonkers.
11 bamac Nov 20th, 2009 at 3:29 pm

EBC,

I found the same thing in the parish church i went to when on holiday in christchurch a few years ago .

On week day Mass the smaller side chapel was used … as there were no kneelers every one stood for the Eucharistic prayers and for the Consecration … every one except this rather elderly lady from Auckland that is .. I received a few sympathetic looks.

At about the same time my sister in England told me that it was the same in her parish church … they had been told that it wasn’t in accord with Vatican 11’s rulings to kneel.. no one could show her exactly where it said that in any of the writings ,surprise ,surprise.

Thank you Dan for # 9

Shallom
12 Don the Kiwi Nov 20th, 2009 at 3:44 pm

“Every knee shall bend, every tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord.”

I recall going to Mass at Eastern Beach several months ago – part of Pakuranga parish I believe.

I knelt anyway – most others stood – throughout the entire ceremony; ie. from the Sanctus to the Great Amen. Then knelt before and after communion. Most others sat.
13 bamac Nov 20th, 2009 at 3:58 pm

Don,

Father Blassoni, now at St Lukes Flat Bush , told us when St Mark’s Pakuranga, that he, personally , found it much easier to pray to God sitting down rather than kneeling and encouraged the congregation to do the same … only a handful did so … he had more luck when cellebrating Mass for the school children when all but a few did as he told them to do ,,, God Bless that few who knelt for the Consecration!!

Shallom
14 dave morgan Nov 21st, 2009 at 12:44 pm

howdy maties

hope all is well on this saturday, the feast of the Presentation of Our Lady

i found this the other day, a little video of fr antoine (community of st john) who is often on ewtn, teaching children (he has a special gift with children) about adoration

video of fr antoine teaching children to adore

very good to watch this – very insightful !!

interesting to note that fr antoine has received huge flak inside the church for teaching children to kneel and prostrate themselves before the Eucharistic Lord

the devil hates those who promote true loving adoration and humble worship

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6uZwD30aXI

peace bruvvas
15 campiana Nov 21st, 2009 at 6:58 pm

From ‘Sacramentum Caritatis’

Adoration and Eucharistic devotion
The intrinsic relationship between celebration and adoration
66. One of the most moving moments of the Synod came when we gathered in Saint Peter’s Basilica, together with a great number of the faithful, for eucharistic adoration. In this act of prayer, and not just in words, the assembly of Bishops wanted to point out the intrinsic relationship between eucharistic celebration and eucharistic adoration. A growing appreciation of this significant aspect of the Church’s faith has been an important part of our experience in the years following the liturgical renewal desired by the Second Vatican Council. During the early phases of the reform, the inherent relationship between Mass and adoration of the Blessed Sacrament was not always perceived with sufficient clarity. For example, an objection that was widespread at the time argued that the eucharistic bread was given to us not to be looked at, but to be eaten. In the light of the Church’s experience of prayer, however, this was seen to be a false dichotomy. As Saint Augustine put it: “nemo autem illam carnem manducat, nisi prius adoraverit; peccemus non adorando — no one eats that flesh without first adoring it; we should sin were we not to adore it.” (191) In the Eucharist, the Son of God comes to meet us and desires to become one with us; eucharistic adoration is simply the natural consequence of the eucharistic celebration, which is itself the Church’s supreme act of adoration(192)Receiving the Eucharist means adoring Him whom we receive. Only in this way do we become one with Him, and are given, as it were, a foretaste of the beauty of the heavenly liturgy. The act of adoration outside Mass prolongs and intensifies all that takes place during the liturgical celebration itself. Indeed, “only in adoration can a profound and genuine reception mature. And it is precisely this personal encounter with the Lord that then strengthens the social mission contained in the Eucharist, which seeks to break down not only the walls that separate the Lord and ourselves, but also and especially the walls that separate us from one another.” (193
The practice of eucharistic adoration
67. With the Synod Assembly, therefore, I heartily recommend to the Church’s pastors and to the People of God the practice of eucharistic adoration, both individually and in community. (194) Great benefit would ensue from a suitable catechesis explaining the importance of this act of worship, which enables the faithful to experience the liturgical celebration more fully and more fruitfully. Wherever possible, it would be appropriate, especially in densely populated areas, to set aside specific churches or oratories for perpetual adoration. I also recommend that, in their catechetical training, and especially in their preparation for First Holy Communion, children be taught the meaning and the beauty of spending time with Jesus, and helped to cultivate a sense of awe before his presence in the Eucharist.
Here I would like to express appreciation and support for all those Institutes of Consecrated Life whose members dedicate a significant amount of time to eucharistic adoration. In this way they give us an example of lives shaped by the Lord’s real presence. I would also like to encourage those associations of the faithful and confraternities specifically devoted to eucharistic adoration; they serve as a leaven of contemplation for the whole Church and a summons to individuals and communities to place Christ at the center of their lives.
Forms of eucharistic devotion
16 dave morgan Nov 21st, 2009 at 10:52 pm

campiana,

howdy

thanks for that quote from pope benedict

absolutely brilliant!

For example, an objection that was widespread at the time argued that the eucharistic bread was given to us not to be looked at, but to be eaten. In the light of the Church’s experience of prayer, however, this was seen to be a false dichotomy

this seems to be what filia-day was getting at all along

Receiving the Eucharist means adoring Him whom we receive. Only in this way do we become one with Him, and are given, as it were, a foretaste of the beauty of the heavenly liturgy. The act of adoration outside Mass prolongs and intensifies all that takes place during the liturgical celebration itself.

thanks campiana

ciao
17 the enthusiastic border-collie Nov 22nd, 2009 at 9:20 am

While I appreciate the theoretical points Chris makes in #6 and #2 and the explanations that have been given to me by others the observable outcome of the policy is as described in #8:

“The actual situation on the ground there is this:
- the congregation stands for the duration of the Eucharistic Prayer
- nobody kneels for the consecration, they remain standing
- there was no bow, or other gesture of reverence, at the point of consecration”

In addition, there is no genuflection when entering or leaving churches in the diocese.

The weirdest outcome is that parishioners split in their postures in different proportions at different sites and when out-of-zone visitors arrive they have the special experience of feeling foreign while at home.

Lastly, this situation gives an insight into the policy making and monitoring process.
It is rare to find an observed behavior linked to a discrete policy change but here we can see a change in genuflection and reverence at the consecration in response to a change in posture at consecration.

These changes over time are clear and unambiguous which makes one wonder what critical self criticism occurs and what the goal is.
18 campiana Nov 22nd, 2009 at 9:38 am

Thanks Dave. I have written to Bishop Cullinane and all the Bishops od the NZ Bishops Conference several times about this issue….way back in 2001 and a few years later. One of the drafts for our Pastoral Instruction way back then was for all in NZ to kneel for the consecration and give a profound bow! Luckily the later documents from Rome put an end to that…how embarassing for NZ

Re profound bows instead of kneeling (i.e. a deep bow from the waist) very easy for eastern catholics to do as it is part of their culture to bow like that. The only time I remember having to bow like that was as a child at a concert to accept applause…completely different meaning…..sometimes the girls courtesied instead.

I often used to to go to the Russian Orthodox Church as an ‘extra’ (I went to my Parish Church on Sunday evenings) I didn’t communicate of course but I just loved being present because of the holiness, sense of the sacred, reverence of the peoplen and the faithfullness to the Tradition of the Church in their belief of the SACRIFICE and REAL PRESENCE. Now I am fortunate to be able to go to the Traditional Rite everyday but still have huge love and respect for the Eastern people.

Now, sure, they stand….but they don’t just stand there!! throughout the Divine Liturgy (and especially during the Eucharistic Prayer) they are bowing profoundly and muttering ‘Lord have mwecy on us! Lord have mercy on us! No ‘proud’ Easter people here!!!!!!

The laity don’t even SEE the consecration as it is done behind the closed doors…that is how sacred it is and their way of showing ADORATION. I have pointed this out to Bishop Cullinane several tines.
19 campiana Nov 22nd, 2009 at 10:32 am

Sorry…re last post…the draft was for all in NZ to STAND even for the consecration and give a profound bow
My apologies.
20 dave morgan Nov 22nd, 2009 at 10:43 am

howdy campiana,

great posts, thanks for sharing your experience and knowledge

what did bishop peter say in reply?

ciao
21 campiana Nov 22nd, 2009 at 11:38 am

Dave

here is the section from a reply of Bishop Cullinane, 22 April 2004:

“I suspect your own confusion derives from the fact that you persistently ignore the theological point involved. Consequently, you are dependent entirely on the regulations. And so where the regulations allow for different ways of doing things, you really have nowhere to go. You end up falling back on personal preferences. It is more objective to take seriously the theology behind the regulations.

Let me put it to you in the form of a question: how does your preference for kneeling throughout the Eucharistic Pfrayer allow you to differentiate between the posture proper to adoration of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament (such as at Benediction) and the posture that best expresses what we are celebrating in the Eucharist, namely our thanksgiving to the Father for raising us up in union with Christ? It seems to me that you want the same posture (kneeling) for expressing these two very different acts of prayer.”

Further on he agrees on the peoples’ right to kneel in Churches which is why he insists on the need for new refurbished churches to allow them to do so easily. He just doesn’t want people kneeling during the Eucharistic Prayer.

nothing I have quoted is marked ‘confidential’. I think I should make that clear.

I sent all my correspondence to Cardinal Arinze and was very comforted to read the passage I quoted above from Sacramentum Caritatis (post no 15)
22 campiana Nov 22nd, 2009 at 12:14 pm

I am sure I have read somewhere that Cardinal Arinze is visiting New Zealand next year. Does anyone know exactly when this will be and what cities he will be visiting?
23 the enthusiastic border-collie Nov 22nd, 2009 at 11:08 pm

If “the draft was for all in NZ to STAND even for the consecration and give a profound bow”

then, sorry, it’s game over, may as well skip down to the local Anglican or Evangelical Church or Lutheran Church with their various approaches to Eucharist.

The “profound bow” is bogus and exists only on paper. That makes the “profound bow” the celebrant performs completely incongruous with the laity so would the priest consider modifying his ostentatious bow to match the ramrod laity?

What confounds me is that the same Bishop writing in #21 sees the absence of “profound bowing” right in front of him every day, every Sunday, yet still argues for standing because, gosh, if a pet-project had to be revised, well, all our little heads might just pop!

This issue is both extremely significant yet tiresome because the results of the policy are so easily observed in the test diocese. Like I said, if this goes nationwide it’ll be kool-aid.

Lastly, regarding this line “It seems to me that you want the same posture (kneeling) for expressing these two very different acts of prayer.”

Isn’t it obvious that the same posture is in response to the same presence? Irrespective of “prayer” there is a singular Presence common to both the Mass and Benediction.
24 Dei Verbum Nov 23rd, 2009 at 6:23 am

C;
Cardinal Arinze is in Auckland courtesy of FLI (not sure where else?)and is appearing at the Eucharistic Convention Mercy Sunday 2010 this is a must see!!!
25 campiana Nov 23rd, 2009 at 7:41 am

“If “the draft was for all in NZ to STAND even for the consecration and give a profound bow”

then, sorry, it’s game over, may as well skip down to the local Anglican or Evangelical Church or Lutheran Church with their various approaches to Eucharist”

Hi enthusiastic border-collie
That draft was one of several ..and it was several years ago now. THe new GIRM and Redemptionis Sacramentum etc helped stop that request. THe Bishops’ conference last year voted for kneeling from Sanctus until after Amen but then went back on this decision and ruled that it would be up to each Bishop which meant Bishop Cullinane could keep standing in his diocese.
This was all reported in NZ Catholic last year….better to check it out with the Editor as
my wording may not be completely correct but I am sure that is what happened.

If you check the Palmerston North website, especially instructions to Ministers (I’ll have to look it up later) there is a lot of information on that website.
26 dave morgan Nov 23rd, 2009 at 8:38 am

hi campiana,

thanks for posting that excerpt from bishop peter

it is very interesting to see his reply, in which he further expresses the false dichotomy that filia day has mentioned, and to which to pope speaks in sacramentum caritatis. bishop peter’s theology is defective i think. he doesn’t understand how “our thanksgiving to the Father for raising us up in union with Christ” is entered into most deeply and brought about by us adoring the Father, through, with, and in Jesus, as His one eternal offering to the Father, is offered on the altars of the Church, in thanksgiving. bishop peter, and other who think like him, have split the latruetic dimension (adoration/worship) of Mass from the thanksgiving dimension. thanksgiving is actually most best expressed in adoration. bishop peter doesn’t realise this. adoration is a fruit of a deep sense of gratitude. this is a false split and demonstrates a lack of understanding of the meaning of the Eucharistic Prayer. he has then tried to make out you are caught in a personal interpretation, but it is him that is in that type of thing. dissappointing really.

he says that benediction and mass are two different types of prayer, demanding two very different types of posture, impying that Mass is thanksgiving, and Benediction is adoration. once again a false split not understanding how aodration is the deepest response to a sense of gratitude, which also involves thanksgiving. it would not be unfair to deduce that bishop peter does not think that Mass is adoration, ie, latruetic; if so, then that is a serious serious error – and further demonstrates a problem in bishop peter’s christology, in not understanding how Christ offered perfect worship/adoration to the Father on the Cross, and how that is represented and entered into by the Church, when She offers the perfect Victim, on her altars, and how we offer ourselves too, through, with, and in Christ. obvisouly thanksgiving is in involved in that too, but it is best expressed in adoration of the Father. a terrible separation is going on in bisho peter’s thought.

anyway, good on you for sending that to Rome, because they need to know how faulty the thinking is of our bishops, not just in lituryg, so that they are acutely aware of how important it is for nz to have good bishops when they appoint news ones in the future.

peace campiana – good work

ciao
27 Dei Verbum Nov 23rd, 2009 at 1:15 pm

talking about CC (c…. change check out this)

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/19/breaking-news-story-hadley-cru-has-apparently-been-hacked-hundreds-of-files-released/#more-12937

Ox is on to it??? :)
28 The Dumb Ox Nov 23rd, 2009 at 1:19 pm

Dei Verbum – the Ox is indeed on to it – this issue will be the subject of my post tomorrow.
29 Scary White Conservative with a Banjo Nov 23rd, 2009 at 1:53 pm

Well said Dave.

One thing that I think is really strange about Bishop Peter’s response is that he starts by talking about the importance of understanding the “theology” behind the regulations, but then he veers right away from this by using his own personal, and very narrow, interpretations of theology as a guide for best practice.

He says that the Eucharist is namely a celebration of “our thanksgiving to the Father for raising us up in union with Christ”.

But this definition strikes me as too narrow as it focuses on only one aspect of the Mass – the unification and resurrection – but this misses the vitally important sacrificial nature of the Mass which gets us to that place of unification and resurrection.

His comments also imply that he mistakes union with equality – it seems to me that he views standing as a sign of our unity with Christ, but this is actually more a sign of equality, rather than unity.

Think about it – you stand in the presence of your equals, but you kneel in the presence of those you have submitted yourself to – as a sign that you have chosen to humble yourself and unite yourself fully to them – standing in the presence of an authority figure (like a king) is either a mark of equality (you are also a king or queen) or a mark of defiance (you refuse to submit, even though they wield great power, and your standing is a sign of that refusal to accept their authority over your own life).

It seems to me that he has confused the issue and views our union with Christ as a union of equality, rather than a union of humble submission where that submission brings merits, rather than those merits existing independently of any act of submission on our part.

In the end he has actually created a far more arbitrary regulation that lacks proper theological backing than the supposed one he thinks that Campiana clings to.

Ironically, his false distinctions between Benediction and Mass ends up smacking of a Pharisaical religiousity where focus on regulations (about bodily postures) become the most important thing – which is of course the very thing he is chastising Campiana for in the first place.