Well, he said he wanted his little billboard to generate debate, and I’m happy to oblige Mr Cardy on this wish. But I wonder if he stopped to think what the debate would be about?
I think Kerre Woodham had an interesting take on the whole matter – basically summarised as churches should focus on their “core business” and stay away from trying to be edgy as it is as awkward as, to quote Ms Woodham, “watching your parents dance”.
(My parents happen to be quite good dancers actually, but her point is still valid I think. 
)
So I don’t want to debate the validity or cleverness or wisdom (or lack thereof) of Saatchi’s billboard for St Matthew’s in the City (bet St Matthew is real happy that his name is attached to all of this though! 
) I would, however, like to explore this new concept that I was only introduced to by this whole incident.
Can someone please explain to me what the heck “progressive Christianity” is?
I’ve been to Mr Cardy’s website and reviewed what he has to say. I’ve also read his little essay on why he put the billboard up. But as best I can understand, “progressive Christianity” seems to be neither progressive nor Christian.
He has a page entitled “It’s not easy being progressive” and I can see why. To quote Hamilton: “Those who stand for nothing fall for anything”.
I mean come on Glynn – what’s the plan here mate? You water down Christianity to such an extent that no one really knows what you believe, or thinks that what they believe is what you believe so you all believe in…belief? I just don’t get it. I’ve had a fair few stirring conversations with fellow Catholics where I’ve said we need to stop apologising for being Catholic, but this is ridiculous.
If you’re going to just outright reject whole fundamental aspects of the Christian story, you can’t really say you’re Christian now, can you? I wonder how those who donated their time and money to build the nice church-shaped hall you celebrate your services in would feel about “progressive Christianity”.
It would seem our resident atheists have a more understandable take on faith than this progressive movement – so what does that tell you?
By the way, speaking of our yet-to-be-convinced-brethern (and sistren? ), how are you all doing? Feeling okay? I ask because I assume you’re all taking Christmas Day off work? Probably buying gifts for loved ones and gonna spend the day chill-laxing?
Just wondering how you all feel about taking part in a Christian festival? Does that sit okay with you? Probably a good idea to sort out how you feel about the dichotomy of not believing in something that you’re taking the time off work to observe before Easter comes around.
(I kid. I kid because I love. 
)
Great homily from Fr Gilbert Ramos yesterday at the 4.30pm service at St Patrick’s Cathedral here in Auckland.
He was very forthright in condemning the billboard.
A great homily and was so great to see a priest so passionate. Was especially powerful since he is usually so quiet and peaceful during mass.
Merry Christmas all, God bless you and keep you safe over the holiday period.
I’m sure we don’t need to discuss the origins of the festival do we?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas#History
And I’m sure you’d all agree it gets more and more secular every year, no? Certainly a massive chunk of NZers probably don’t place religious significance on the holiday (given >1.5 million don’t subscribe to a religion).
So I guess that just as Christianity has redefined the festival to meet its needs, the increasingly secular population has done, and is continuing to do, the same.
But to answer your question…I feel fine. For me it’s all about celebrating relationships with family and friends, and drinking white wine in the sun.
First, what I don’t get about the whole Billboard thing is, who exactly is Cardy “dialoguing” with. Does anyone actually believe that God the Father had sexual relations with Mary? After all the Nicene Creed states that is “by the power of the Holy Spirit He became incarnate from the Virgin Mary”. If Cardy’s argument is that God isn’t male and, God didn’t came down from Heaven to have sex with Mary, then who actually disagrees with that? While the Church may use male imagery for God the Father we know that he isn’t male the way that I am male. It’s pretty easy to win an argument when one fights a straw man.
I think James you ask an important question: progressing to what? There once was a time when progress and reform were good words. Now reform means the government is cutting services and progress means moral laxity. The likes of Cardy is not new and we have had this sort of theology in New Zealand for a while – Lloyd Geering being the most notable. In the Church there have being three responses to the culture we live. The first is openly hostile. The second is totally receptive and in fact the church’s ideals and the cultures are intermixed so much that there is no real difference. The third is that the Church seeks to transform the culture that we find ourselves in.
Cardy and Co are of the opinion that since our culture can’t believe in historical Christianity, as expressed in the Creed, then they need to transform the Church to reflect and embody the spirit and values of this age. The Church’s role is to bless the values of our society, or at least the official values, and it allows society to wheel out a friendly priest for special occasions, say a few nice things, and then be put back away until next time. This sort of church won’t challenge the status quo. And to be fair the Catholic Church did this as well in certain places and certain times – just different culture values.
fishe,
I was wondering if someone would take the bait.
While the time of year and things like decorated trees were…ahem…appropriated from other religions, the fact is that Christ-mas is a 100% Christian festival. It is about celebrating the birth of Christ the Saviour first and foremost…hence the name.
But this is my point. I don’t celebrate Ramadan because (despite Chris Sullivan’s interesting theology theory) I’m not a Muslim. I don’t celebrate Yom Kippur because I’m not a Jew. Yet you celebrate Christmas when you are not a Christian? Seems a bit askew to me.
Now that is an interesting perspective and one I think you’re right to point out. However, when we “redefined” aspects of pagan festivals to fit with our religion, we introduced a fundamentally new aspect which wasn’t in the mix before and made that the focus for the season – i.e. the birth of Christ. All the other stuff – i.e. buying presents, spending time with loved ones, the holiday (as in “Holy day”) – come with that fundamental change in focus. What the secular society seems to be trying to do is keep the “holiday cheer” but remove the reason for the cheerfulness.
So, if you want to change Christmas to be Secular-mas, surely you’d dump our carols, our St Nicholas branding, our tradition of giving gifts and taking the day off work…if you were being really true to what you believe.
Man For Some Seasons,
Good call!
Tristram,
Sorry I missed that homily but glad it was a good one by the sounds of things.
James,
I really don’t think you can say Christmas is a 100% Christian festival. It’s a name of a holiday that means many things for many different people. E.g. I know some Asian families living in NZ celebrate it now, even though they may be Buddhists. It’s as much, or even more, a cultural/social festival as it is a religious one, regardless of what Christendom views it as.
You love all this relativism don’t cha
And this is the reason I can celebrate Christmas – it’s part of our culture. I certainly don’t celebrate a virgin birth though, like probably the majority of NZers today.
I see no reason to drop carols, or anything like that – heck, even the narrative of Jesus. It’s a cool story. I just view these things as solely cultural stories/narratives, with no basis in reality whatsoever.
Fische, at Christmas I celebrate the mystery that God – who exists from all time – became a little child in poor (soon to be refuge) family, in an out-of-the-way corner of the world, in a time long before modern communications.
At Christmas, I too am called to become a little child: to see the world with the awe of a child; to be grateful for the small miracles of everyday life, as a child is grateful; to enjoy ‘now’ as a child enjoys each moment.
I’m happy that you enjoy the carols and the narrative – and all the trimmings that any festival accrues over centuries. I wish you sunny weather and good cheer.
As for me and my family, we began anticipating the great miracle of the Potter stepping inside His clay when Advent began four weeks ago. We’ve said our prayers by the light of the Advent candle; we’ve added an ornament a day to the Jesse tree and told the story of the ornament, retracing Jesus’s ‘family tree’ from the moment of creation. We’ve been to reconciliation to prepare ourselves for Christmas Day.
Then, while you and yours are packing away the Christmas lights for another year, we’ll still be celebrating Christmastide – with St Stephen’s Day, St John’s Day, the Feast of the Holy Innocents, the solemnity of Mary, Epiphany, the Feast of the Holy Family, the Baptism of our Lord, St Agnes Day and Candlemas. That takes us right through from the end of November until February. We love Christmas!
Hi Guys,
I don’t ‘celebrate’ Christmas, but I do take the time off work. I do that for a number of reasons: firstly, I’m mandated to take the time off by my company, and secondly I do it because were I to ask for all the pagan holidays off, I’d hardly ever be at work
I think it would be hypocritical of me to ‘celebrate’ Christmas and I have nothing at all to do with it in my house. If someone wishes me Christmas greetings I will answer thank you, but I don’t believe in God. I saw an interesting take on this approach on a blog last night, in that some folk are now taking to wishing people ‘Reasons Greetings’, which I thought was rather cool.
As for carols and other religious music is concerned I love them for their musical content. One of my favourite pieces of music is Handel’s Messiah and I love to sing that sort of music; it really is a beautiful experience, but made more so because unless one has a knowledge of Latin, it’s focussed totally on the music and not on the words. As someone famously said, ‘why should Satan get all the good tunes’
(assuming you believe in Satan of course!)
KA
What is Progressive Christianity?
It is Christianity without the reality. Christian symbolism is gutted of the reality it is, yet progressive christianity retains its outward appearances. These gutted symbols and realities are made empty and hollow thereby able to be ‘reimagined’ by the progressive christian into whatever their mind wishes to form their god into. Jesus can become a mere prophet, a convenient male suit of clothes on an androgenous ’spirit’??
The central theme is essentially monism? All religions are in the same spirit thereby reducing the incarnation as irrelevant. From this Christ changes and it all unravels from there.
It is what Peter Kreeft would call ‘angelism’ a rejection of matter (the Incarnation) for super spiritualism.
So in effect it uses the word ‘christian’ yet it has gutted Christianity of its central reality the Incarnate, Crucified and Resurrected (bodily – not the religious expererience kind) Christ who is both God and man.
Salvation is irrelevant. Sin is irrelevant.
It is a parasite on the Christian faith, a terminal infection and disease which strangles the truth out of Christianity.
I consider it rather like a cult of enthusiasts who because of envy reject all authority beyond themselves which is essentially a moral problem they prefer to idolise rather than the truth of revealed Christianity. There biggest enemy is the Body of Christ – the Godman and the Church which they deem to be patriarchally oppressive.
Favourite targets of progressive christians – Bishops, the Eucharist and the Liturgy…
B #9
and because the first two are male instigated we see an association with feminism that sees male ‘domination’ as the enemy.
The emasculation of priesthood (in fact of all men) has been the most effective strategy of the progressives as it also undermines Church authority.
but the church is awakening to the threat and the tide is turning. The attacks by Cardy and his ilk on rightousness and truth are signs of panic even in anglicanism.
howdy cobbers, and other beings of feminine orientation,
well spoken benedicta
interesting bit in this one…
Woman who cut billboard avoids prosecution
5:49 PM Monday Dec 21, 2009
says it all really
these people are ideologues, masquerading as christians
peace bruvvas and sistas
ciao ciao
Good article for Fishe on why December 25 (or January 6 in the East).
http://blog.beliefnet.com/deaconsbench/2009/12/how-december-25th-became-christmas.html
The idea it was a pagan festival is a later gloss, though a lot of the solstice trimmings have been adopted.
I would propose as a thought-provoking billboard to adorn St Matthews in the City:
“Catholicism is a hard act to follow”
The progress is not towards anything. The progressive tent is so large it relies on a level of theological abstraction so all-encompassing that it stands for nothing. For example, progressives will all agree that love is good, what they won’t do is clearly work through what this abstract statement means in daily life, as such thinking may offend. No, progressives are progressing away from the truthful teachings of Christ that require lines to be drawn, and moral decisions to be made.