Hello!
First of all I apologise for the cringe worthy title 
There has been some vigorous debate on the site this week – it definitely made me think a little. But it also frustrated me because we are all so divided on issues and it is impossible to achieve any sort of consensus, and probably always will be. Which in a way is good – who wants to behave like members of a mindless cult.
It led me to think about just what level of dissent between you and a potential boyfriend / girlfriend / husband / wife is ok? Obviously it is a question which needs context but should you go out with a non-Christian? Should you go out with a non-Catholic? What if you fall in love with someone who is neither? Is it ok to think you will try to convert them, but otherwise just agree not to agree on God? Lots of people seem to complain of a lack of potential candidates in their churches!
In my experience finding a partner is a focus in a lot of people’s lives. I would say that people even change churches to find potential Christian / Catholic partners if that is a priority for them. Youth group and church things in the past have sometimes given me this awkward feeling that half the people there are looking for potential partners. And really I guess there’s nothing wrong with that. Should they turn to Christian internet dating? Should we be setting up “Table for 7” (God being the seventh at the table)?
For me a Christian partner is imperative. Not to have God in a relationship would just be weird. It would be like I’d compromised a whole chunk of myself, and couldn’t share that with my husband. My marriage vows would just not be meaning the same thing to my partner. Added to that, I would feel 100% more secure in a Christian relationship. But as has been shown there is lots of room for different opinions beyond that. What if you totally butt heads on some aspects of your faith?
My boyfriend and I don’t agree on every aspect of faith, but it’s not a major issue. It’s great having discussions with someone who is not a carbon copy of you. You challenge each other and are forced to back your opinions and beliefs up by learning more and exploring your faith further. But it does beg the question what should you be agreeing on? In general, I would say a level of discussion and dissent is actually healthy. But how far is too far?
Interesting questions there eyeWitness. I think you hit the nail on the head in your last paragraph. I think it is not so much the differences as it is our approach to them. We can learn a lot about each other, and ourselves, if we approach things with an open mind.
That said, as far as “how far is too far”, my opinion is that when things start venturing into areas of direct opposition to your conscience, your Faith or your Church, that’s where things are going too far. You need to be able to maintain your integrity as well your faith – your partner should always help you to grow in your faith, not diminish it.
Great topic!
Hey eyeWitness! Your comment about going to church things and feeling like you were being nmeasure up as a potential partner made me laugh!
People who go along to those things probably don’t go with the specific purpose of finding a partner, but sometimes it is the easiest place to look if you’re trying to find someone with similar beliefs, *cough* Hearts Aflame *cough*. (No slight to HA intended)
I admire your courage having a non-Catholic boyfriend. I know when I was thinking about potential partners I always had the view that she was going to be Catholic. Partly because it would have made questions such as ‘which church do we get married in’, ‘can we bring our kids up Catholic’, ‘How do i explain the hymns we have to sing’ easier to answer. But you can’t help who you fall in love with!
it’s also a good way to make sure you know more about your Catholic faith and why we believe the things we do.
I guess for me, I would prefer a Catholic girl over a girl of another denomination but what I consider more important is that the girl has a good relationship with God and is active within her church.
I can see that an issue like contraception could cause problems for me if I was married to a girl of another faith and this is one of the reasons why I would prefer a Catholic girl over a Christian girl.
As for going out with someone who is not Christian, that is a hard call. It probably depends on who the person is really. Some non-Christians are going to be more understanding and open to the Catholic faith than others. I have also noticed that as young children go through the Church and receive the sacraments, the ones with a better understanding of the Church and stronger faith tend to be the ones where both parents are Catholic. This is presumably due to the one-Catholic-parent families not having the same amount of time to devote to the development of their child’s faith and Catholic education as families where both parents are Catholic.
Personally, I avoid going out with non-Christians because I think that there is an even greater chance that you are going to have problems when it comes to things like contraception, abortion, euthanasia, etc.
I would be quite interested in other peoples views on this topic.
An issue for me is that I think it is really important to be able to go to church as a family. I think it would be a lot harder to teach a strong faith to your children without the parents being a ‘tight unit’ (for want of a better way to express myself!!) If you have different ideas about what church you want to go to, or one parent doesn’t go to church, I think that could have detrimental effects. I would like it to be a central family part of my week. It seems important to pray with your husband as a building block of your relationship. I don’t know – maybe you could go to two churches or something… but that gets hard.
Issues like contraception I think aren’t too hard, because it is not hard for a non-christian / non catholic partner to respect your choices in that – if they don’t well I would say they aren’t respecting you.
Lots of non-Christian people don’t believe in euthanasia and abortion – I think those would issues for me that would definitely fall under “too far”. I think my fundamental values would conflict too much with a person with believes in those things.
Good topic eyeWitness.
I suppose I sit on the opposite side of the fence to you. I’ve dated non-Christians, non-Catholics and Catholics and I’ve come to the conclusion that, unfortunately, just being religious isn’t enough – for me anyway. It’s about the person, and who that person is essentially.
I’ve seen God’s love at work in people who “don’t believe” – in many cases, I’ve seen God more in those people than I have in churchgoers…
I’m seeing a guy at the moment who does more for me on every level than others I’ve dated in the past. He was raised a Catholic, but never engaged in it and isn’t interested in it at all. That said, he’s interested in the fact I’m a practising Catholic, and we talk about it openly. He doesn’t come to Mass with me but ensures any plans we have take into account my need to go.
I couldn’t ask for anything more from him and I wouldn’t want to. The fact he’s not Catholic is not an issue, more a talking point. I’m sure the argument could be put that it’s not an issue now because we’re not married and have no children, but the respect and care he shows me far outweighs that I’ve seen in many other Catholic and other-denomination Christian men.
That’s my piece anyway
I’m with the Captain on this one
I can certainly understand the arguments “in favour” of going out with someone of the same faith – but ultimately, when it comes to relationships, the whole person is the real consideration.
While it’s easy to hypothesize, with some validity, the reasons to find someone of the same faith, love often defies our most rational musings.
In my own experience, the attraction to go out with someone usually accompanies kindred or complementary personalities – while relationships are not always easy, the core convictions that make us respect and love the other person are usually mutual.
If that’s anything to go by, then the considerations of which faith (if any) they identify with are secondary, and an implicit consideration in the personality that we fall in love with.
My fiancee is, as it happens, a Catholic – but I didn’t set out to “choose” anyone based on their faith, or any other discrete factors.
I think that dating a non-Catholic or even a non-Christian can be a positive thing in some ways, as it challenges you to really look at what you believe, often forcing you to delve deeper to really understand (and thus be able to explain) where you are coming from.
If your relationship is moving you towards greater depth of faith and understanding then I think that is a really great thing! I personally think that the most important point is whether someone has a strong faith in Jesus, rather than their denomination (thus don’t think I could marry a non-Christian). That being said, I agree with eyeWitness that it is extremely important that a family has a church they belong to and attend as a family. So I guess a major concern for me in a Catholic/Christian relationship is coming to an agreement on what church you will attend and how you will bring up your children.
In coming to agreements/decisions with your potential husband/wife of a different denomination, I think it’s really important that neither of you feels like they are compromising important aspects of their faith, because our relationship with God is the most important thing in our lives. This is somewhat trickier in reality than on paper! Wouldn’t it be easy if we all just believed the same thing?!! I guess then we wouldn’t be the individuals that God created us to be!
Both my parents and parents-in-law were marriages that started out with a devoted Catholic woman marrying an agnostic man. It’s interesting to see how for some people who find they fall in love with a non-Catholic, this can be one of the most important ‘evangelisation missions’ they are ever called to – because it is life-long, and requires such a huge effort. Both of these women held strong to their faith and managed to, in their own ways, evangelise to their husbands over the course of many years of marriage.
My father-in-law actually converted to Catholicism after being married for over 10 years. My father never converted, but I believe my mother’s daily evangelisation had a huge effect, and perhaps he converted in his heart, if never publicly.
These marriages can work out, but I don’t think they are as easy as when both partners are Catholic. (But then nothing in life was meant to be easy was it).
There are two factors which are absolutely vital, however, if someone is considering marrying a non-Catholic/non-Christian: (a) the non-Catholic/non-Christian party needs to support the faith of their partner and their partner’s desire to pass that on to their children. This needs to be discussed into the ground and freely agreed upon, because you marry someone for life, and that can be a very LONG time… and (b) in entering into the marriage, the Catholic party must be sure that deep down they don’t assume that eventually they will be able to convert their partner. You would need to be prepared for the possibility that this would never happen, and happy to be married forever anyway.
I could say heaps more but I have to go back to work!
Ok, because the name of this website is ‘being frank’, i shall be frank. Dating or marrying someone who is Christian (whatever denomination), is a completely different kettle of fish to marrying a non-Christian. The former is the only good option. Im sorry, but the later is foolishness.
In fact, its one of the leading causes of divorce.
Why would you deliberately and knowingly set yourself up for failure?
Its probably because people can not place enough trust in God that He will provide someone else.
Completely disagree with you Marler1 – I’d like to know on what you base the comment: “In fact, it’s one of the leading causes of divorce.”
I would suggest that it’s a little foolhardy to believe the person God’s provided for you – or will provide for you – comes in a pre-approved (by you) package.
Being Catholic on paper or going to Mass/church services but not engaging in it or the wider religion does not a good Christian/Catholic make – that’s part of it, a very important part, but only a part.
Likewise, I’ve seen many a non-Christian who lives a life that aligns far closer to Jesus’ teachings, and God’s love, than plenty of Catholics and other-denomination Christians.
I would venture to suggest that plenty of unhappy marriages occurred three, two (or only one) generations ago when people married because they shared religion and nothing else – and they thought that would be enough.
In fact, I know of a few marriages (this generation!) that have fallen apart for precisely that reason. I really feel strongly that to have a hard-and-fast rule either way on this topic just asks for trouble…
Scrat, I really like and appreciate your final point about not assuming you will eventually convert your partner.
Hi marler1, regarding your comment:
“Its probably because people can not place enough trust in God that He will provide someone else.”
What if the person God provided was a non-Christian?
Supposed to be working, but just quickly in response:
Captain, sorry not sure the of source off the top of my head, but I’ll get back to you,
Conan, while I obviously can not say what God will or will not do, it seems extremely unlikley that He would do so. There are many references to this throughout the Bible, for example:
“Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God
…
“Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE,” says the Lord. “AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN; And I will welcome you.
(2 Corinthians 6:14-18)
There are also warnings and punishments from God for disregard of His command for marital distinction, for example:
…they shall be a snare and a trap to you, and a whip on your sides and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from off this good land which the LORD your God has given you. (Joshua 23:13)
I think it is feasible that God would provide someone who you could play an instrumental role in converting.
- but I still have problems with the fact that marriage is a covenant between two people and God – and if one person isn’t entering into that that would be a problem for me.
If they dont ever convert you don’t get to share your faith with your partner. You would have to be quite strong in your faith – it would be a lot harder on your own, without that support.
But it is hard to say because of course we don’t know God’s plan, so I guess you would have to pray a lot about it.
Hi all,
I’ll chime in. I haven’t read all the posts so far, so forgive me if I repeat something….
I think Eyewitness is saying some good things.
God really needs to be in the relationship for it first of all to last, but also so that it can be deep, fruitful, fulfilling, and an expression of what marriage should be.
There’s no doubt, there are non-Christian marriages out there that are full of love, and commitment, but that doesn’t mean we should try to immitate that.
We know that those marriages would benefit immensely from having Jesus in them.
Now that marriage has been elevated to the level of a Sacrament in the New Law of Grace, and is an image of Christ’s love for His Bride, the Church, it is a channel of supernatural life for the spouses, which is a huge thing…
Their married life is helping them get to Heaven in a real way – …
Anyway, my thoughts are that it is vbery dangerous for a person who really wants to live a Christian life to marry a non-Christian, and for a Catholic, a danger to marry a non-Catholic.
My cousins have married non-Catholics, and they have had difficulties, e.g., they can’t pray the rosary together because they don’t agree that it is ok, they can’t go to Mass together, they disagree on what is needed for salvation…etc…
With all the emotional bagage, hurts, psychological scarring, and childhood wounds that we have these days, it’s important that a marriage be a place where the spouses can both go to Christ to help with difficulties when things start to come out in the wash…otherwise things often blow apart, when pressure comes on.
Hi guys
Two things;
1) If you marry someone who is not Catholic you risk the fullness of the sacrament as they are not united with the Church. The Catechism clearly states that a marriage COVENANT applies to a baptised man and woman.
2) According to the Church, a mixed marriage needs express permission of ecclesiastical authority for the validity of the marriage. The Catholic must preserve their own faith and ensure the baptism and education of the children in the Catholic Church.
For me, I have found that my faith is so important and such a huge part of my life that if I can’t share that and have it be understood then there is a huge pillar in the way of deep intimacy. I want to share that with someone, it is just too important to me, God knows this and He will provide…
Nice topic, eyeWitness, and creating a good level of debate and discussion, too.
I think the important word here, and it’s been used in passing, is “values”. I think it’s important that you share the same values as your boyfriend/girlfriend, and especially so when it’s on the path to marriage. I think life would be a whole lot easier if we all found someone of the same denomination with whom we share the same set of values, but not all Catholics have the same set of values, as much as some people think they should/wish they would.
Things would get tricky when it came to children especially, as has been touched on (family prayer/Mass/worship, school choices etc), but a Protestant with whom a Catholic shares similar values would be a better match from a compatibility standpoint than two Catholics who sit on opposite ends of the values spectrum.
That’s my 10 cents’ worth (inflation’s a bugger).