To continue on a theme of gentleness that came from my last post – and thank you Poorclear for adding such a beautiful bit! – I thought I’d muse a bit on our mother, Mary.
I can count on one hand the number of rosaries I said as a child. Mary was not someone I was taught to turn to, to understand as a mother, protector, intercessor, example and all the other beautiful things she is. For a long time, I found it very hard to relate to her – I didn’t understand her role as such the gentle and loving mother who points us always to Christ, the centrality of her womb in the story of history.
While I was a teenager, the little achiever in me set out to be ‘excellent’ at praying rosaries – but try as I might, I just couldn’t get that multi-tasking right…meditating on the mystery, praying the words and fiddling with the beads. For me it wasn’t a natural way to pray, quite possibly because it was not something I had done much of in my childhood.
However, as I’ve mellowed a little and learned that prayer is not something one perfects, or is ‘good’ at, I’ve found myself more at home in the heart of Mary.
There is just so much to Our Lady – infinite love, courage, beauty, humility, perfection – and it’s nothing to be afraid of. She certainly doesn’t sit there saying “Gosh, you’re so unholy, not like me…” – she’s really has the greatest of any mother’s love for us. Her silent, gentle, uncompromising example of discipleship is something we can always ponder.
I think I’m only just scratching the surface of my knowing Our Lady…coming close to her, seeking consolation from her and consecrating my life and work to her.
I have a question re: Mary
and I am not going to Hi-jack this thread into a protty v Catho debate.
Why is it that Catholics say, Mary please help me? Do they really believe that Mary intervenes a:on her own accord or b: can even intervene into the physical world save through interceding for us?
I ask this because my understanding of how God intervenes in this world is by his Holy Spirit (which is Christ, and the Father at the same time) but I don’t know if Mary has a “spirit” per se that actually intervenes like the HS does…
Is her help merely through her intercession on our behalf?
Poorclear I await your eloquence
Is her help merely through her intercession on our behalf?
Yes.
God follows the commandment which teaches to honor our mother and father. Therefore, Mary’s intercession is especially powerful, not to mention that it was through her that God chose to become incarnate and die on the cross to save us.
God Bless
Public service announcement:
In the name of peace I have decided to renounce my evil ways and put down my AK-47, and simply concentrate on honing my banjo playing skills just in case the devil ever comes down to Georgia.
In response to Chris: Why do we not choose to pray to Joseph equally as much?
If:
her help is merely through intercession.
Is it wrong to ask her to help us? Why don’t we ask her more specifically for her prayers (for the sake of specificity)?
I am purely wondering, and not trying to cause mischief again
I’m a bit fuzzy on the theology of this, so I shall leave it up to those skilled theologians to answer better, but I can answer from a daughters perspective
I think that for the Church, Mary has always been a mother figure (going back to OT ideas of the queen mother)
As Catholics we believe all power to save is through God and Christs ultimate sacrifice on the cross. However, we have been asked to become intimately involved in the salvation of souls (”What is lacking in the Cross, I make up for in my own body” cf St Paul I believe), through our own ‘Yes’ to God. While God does not have to rely on us nor is anything to do with salvation OUR OWN POWER, he does ask us to collaborate, and through our actions his grace can work. I’m sure you’ve seen this through many examples.
Mary is the ultimate example of collaboration, through her ‘yes’ humanity was saved. We can speculate till the cows come home about if Mary had said no, could she say no etc, but the main point is she said YES and through that YES all humanity was come to be saved, not through her power, but through her cooperation.
Thus Mary is held up to be not only the ultimate collaborater, but the ultimate example of discipleship, not to mention being the ‘New Eve’ and the Mother of God. She is a mother to all of us.
As such, and as Christ’s mother, she has a special place in the heart of God and the Church. When we ask her intercession, and help, we believe she does help us, not through her own power, but through the power of God working through her, as she seeks to bring all souls closer to her beloved son. Furthermore, as a daughter of Mary, I can turn to her as a mother, as someone who is always close to me, always seeking through her continued yest to God to bring me closer.
The tradition of asking for the help of other saints, including St Joseph, is there, and a I know many people with a special devotion or who get a lot of inspiration out of the lives of many saints, including St Joseph. But Mary holds a special place as Queen mother, as mother of the Church and mother of us.
I hope this is somewhat helpful. Perhaps I didn’t answer the question directly, so can try again!
There is just so much to Our Lady – infinite love, courage, beauty, humility, perfection – and it’s nothing to be afraid of. She certainly doesn’t sit there saying “Gosh, you’re so unholy, not like me…” – she’s really has the greatest of any mother’s love for us. Her silent, gentle, uncompromising example of discipleship is something we can always ponder.
I love this. So true.
Is it wrong to ask her to help us? Why don’t we ask her more specifically for her prayers
1. No.
2. We do ask for her prayers. It’s through her prayers that she helps us.
God Bless
“the power of God working through her” – I’m a bit fuzzy on this…
How can God work through Mary… Doesn’t she intercede for us purely to christ and the HS works in our lives..
I understand God can work through me, to speak a prophetic word to my brother but isnt that different because i am alive and ahve a physical presence to my brother…
the HS has a spiritual presence to me.
does mary also get given a spiritual presence to aid us by
Hi Lorry.
Are those in heaven dead?
Or are they more ‘alive’ than we are?
In response to Chris: Why do we not choose to pray to Joseph equally as much?
We are prefectly entitled to pray to Joseph and even to pray to him more than we pray to Mary if that is our particular spirituality.
But Joesph is not the father of God in the same way that Mary is the mother of God.
God Bless
Well one could argue that Mary was assumed bodily into heaven, so technically, she is a physical presence.
I want to say that that much in the same way God works through you, God works through Mary, but I’m unsure of the hows or what that means concretly. I mean, I talk to mary and ask her help for concrete things and always thank her, and God when they happen, so I guess I feel Mary actually does things, (ie really looking out for me, or in a concrete situation I’m asking her help on) but somehow through the power of the HS working through her…
Mmm I wish I could explain this better.
Any takers?
does mary also get given a spiritual presence to aid us by
Sure. The saints are really present to us. The communion of saints is a spiritual reality.
Lots of people experience the spiritual presence of Mary.
God Bless
I do think the whole Mary thing does require an understanding of the communion of saints which chris has quite nicely summed up
Gianna,
I think Mary doesn’t do anything by her own power but by the power of God working through her.
That’s what it means to be truely humble and to magnify the Lord.
God Bless
Hi Lorry and thanks for your genuine questions.
Catholics pray to Mary, to intercede for us with her Son.
Catholic’s worship God and God alone. Mary however, enjoys “special favour” with God
because (but not limited to): a)she is prefigured by Eve (Genesis 3:15), b) she bore the Saviour of Mankind, c) her earthly intercessions bore fruit (cf. the wedding at Cana), providing evidence and an indication of what her Heavenly intercessions would do, d) she is the woman clothed with the sun, whose children would defeat the dragon (Gen 3:15, Rev 12).
This favour is known as hyperdulia, or the highest form of praise/veneration that a human creature can receive. Indeed, the start of the Rosary is, in the literal Greek is “Hail Full of Grace….”, meaning Mary’s name per se means “one full of grace” and this was accounted to her by the angel no less.
Because of her grace, she bore Christ. As she physically bore Him, she also spiritually bore Him – she was the first to hear the good news. And her fiat was a simple “yes”. It is therefore logical that any graces God chooses to bestow on humanity, channel through her. She is NOT the source of those graces, but she is a necessary conduit for them to pass to us, just like she was the physical conduit for Christ to be born.
As for St Joseph, he too holds high esteem in the Church and many prayers are directed to him, especially for fatherhood and chastity. As a father, I have him on speed-dial…..
As for Mary, on a personal level, all I can say is that she has sheltered me, my family and many of our friends in times of trial, and in times of joy. In particular, since devotion to her, my wife has known a peace that had been absent prior – a peace that NOTHING will diminish. And of all the natural humans held up by the Catholic Church, she is the pinnacle. It is a sad indictment on the modern age that the phrase “most Mary like” has been lost from our vocabulary in describing the genius of individual woman.
All she asks is that we follow her Son.
(going back to OT ideas of the queen mother)
Gianna, can I ask you what you mean by this? I can think of only three Queen Mothers in the Old Testament: Semiramis, nasty mother of the nasty Nimrod, Athaliah, nasty Queen of Judah, mother of the equally nasty Ahaziah, and the Queen of Heaven mentioned in Jeremiah, for whom the women of Israel made raisin cakes and poured out drink offerings, in apostate idoltary against the Lord their God.
None of these are encouraging. Can you tell me who I’ve forgotten, please?
Oh, and there’s Bathsheba, of course, in the reign of Solomon, who doesn’t seem like the kind of woman I’d invite to dinner.
Oops, for the avoidance of doubt I am not equating the Blessed Virgin Mary and Theokotnos with any of the above.
Queen mother of King Solomon
“Can you tell me who I’ve forgotten, please?”
Andrewesman,
I think Gianna is referring to the Gebirah, or Queen Mother.
It was an important role in the Jewish royal household, especially because the Jewish kings tended to have lots of different wives and concubines from many different nationalities – which meant that selecting one of them to be queen presented very real risks to the future of the kingdom.
Instead the Jewish kings had a Gebirah – the Queen mother who acted in a queenly role, and protects the royal line for them.
Here is a good explanation from another site:
Mary is the Gebirah in the New Covenant House of David.
Was that what you were banging on about Gianna?
Yes and wasn’ there an example of Solomons mother or something being given special place?
On Solomon’s mother, see #18. Manipulative cow.
Sorry, never liked her.
Andrewsman,
We are shocked, shocked, that, of all people, an Anglican, would dare to defame the Queen Mother
God Bless
Yes there was Gianna, but I can’t remember the reference off the top of my head.
Manipulative cow or not it was Bathsheba who took the petitions of the common folk to her son King David and interceded on their behalf. Did David not say “I can refuse you nothing”. And so likewise Jesus our Saviour in His Heavenly Kingdom receives the prayers and petitions of His Mother on our behalf. Mary His Mother is Queen of heaven – she also is the Ark of the Covenant – she bore the Word of God in her womb – the law giver and the bread of heaven just as the original ark contained the staff of Aaron the word of God and manna. David danced before the Ark when it was brought to the temple just as John the Baptist leapt in his mother’s womb and Elizabeth exclaimed “How is it that the mother of my Lord visits me?
Mary is a most powerful intercessor – Our Lord from His cross gave His Mother to be our mother. We are much blessed who have devotion to the Mother of Our Saviour. We have honoured Mary from time immemorial – when did the English Catholics discard her intercession. There are churches in England dedicated to Mary’s Assumption (not torn down during the reformation).
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9812fea2.asp
I haven’t read it, but as it’s written by Sri it will be on the ball.
God Bless
Find a copy of Edward P Sri’s The Scriptual Rosary – his chapter on the Crowning of Mary as Queen of Heaven is superb as is the chapter on the Assumption – far better than my attempt in 26
Mary shows what it means to be conformed to Christ crucified.
In all cases, Marian practices and dogma illuminate truths about Jesus Christ. Where Jesus becomes secondary then the practice is awry.
The Marian dogmas are a moat around a castle.
They are the first lines of defence around the central Christological dogmas.
Consider Mary as Mother of God, something Luther was perfectly comfortable with, once that is rejected the question arises “who” or “what” was she Mother of, which opens the way to direct attack on the nature of Jesus.
Further much of it can be understood by considering two features:
she is both the Ark of the New Covenant, the Word carrier or God carrier, and she is an archetype for human Redemption, the new Eve by obediance to Christ, the new Adam.
Giana mentions the ‘Queen Mother’, the Gebirah (n.b. Jer13, 1King2). The OT imperfection does not tarnish the position any more than Adam sullies Christ. Like many positions in the OT they are perfected in the NT.
+++
“[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures. “
Martin Luther, Christmas Sermon, 1531.
Mary! My mother, mystical rose, my Queen! Truely, Christ’s grace knows no bounds! Totus tuus.
#29, on the Luther quote.
Ah, that strategic last line, missed out on the other thread. I agree with that paragraph.
To expand on what others have written, here’s a (long-ish) summary of the typologies pertaining to Mary. A type is a symbol which points to its fulfillment. As St. Augustin said, “New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old Testament is revealed in the New”. Examples include: Jesus as the Second Adam; Manna and spotless lamb prefiguring Christ, and ; circumcision and ccrossing of the Red Sea prefiguring baptism. The fulfilment in New Testament are found to be greater or more perfect, and more universal. They reveal the true meaning of the types.
Mary is the fulfilment of at least three types:
1. Arc of the Covenant
2. Davidic Queenship
3. Eve
Here, she is referred to in her fulfilment of these. It’s also notable that all of the following can be deduced from these in the Bible alone (although, of course, Sacred Tradition and Sacred Magisterium are necessary to validate them):
Doctrines:
• Co-redemptrix
• Mediatrix
• Advocate
Dogmas:
• Mother of God – Theotokos, “God bearer”
• Perpetual Virginity
• Immaculate Conception
• Assumption of Mary
Here are the keys used for clarification:
[T] – Type
[F] – Fulfilment
1. Arc of the New Covenant
[T] The old Arc of the Covenant contained:
1. manna (bread from Heaven)
2. Aaron’s rod (symbolising priesthood)
2. 10 commandments (God’s word in stone).
[F] The New Arc of the Covenant, the Virgin Mary, contained within her:
1. True Bread of Life from Heaven
2. the Eternal Priest after the order of Melchizedek
3. Word of God incarnate
The following parallel passages from the Old Testament foreshadow the New Arc:
[T] 2 Sam 6:9 – David says: “How can the ark of the LORD come to me?”
[F] Luke 1 – Elizabeth says: “And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?”
[T] 2 Sam 6:11 – “And the ark of the Lord abode in the house of Obededom the Gethite three months: and the Lord blessed Obededom, and all his household.”
[F] Luke 1:56-58 – “And Mary remained with her about three months (house of Zechari’ah). Now Elizabeth’s full time of being delivered was come, and she brought forth a son. And her neighbours and kinsfolks heard that the Lord had shewed his great mercy towards her, and they congratulated with her”
[T] 2 Sam 6:14 – “And David danced before the LORD”
[F] Luke 1:41 “the babe leaped in her womb”
The implications of Mary being the Arc of the New Covenant are many, including:
• Powerful intercession in battle:[T] As the Arc was in physical battle, [F] Mary fulfills this in spiritual warfare, in fulfilment of Genesis 3:15: “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”
• Holiness: [T] The Arc was made from acacia wood and pure gold with precise, calculated instructions (Exodus 25:10-22), the perfection of which, by the way, is shown by its conformity to the divine proportion. We also know how holy the Arc was – so much so that a man died touching it [F] (alluding also to perpetual virginity). Imagine how much holier Mary, the fulfilment of this type, is. God himself designed her to be the perfect carrier of His only Son, imbuing her with the Sanctifying grace at the moment of conception – this is what we call the Immaculate Conception.
2. Queen Mother
See the article Chris links to in #27 for a more comprehensive coverage on this one.
In the Old Testament tradition, owing to the sheer number of wives that Kings often had, the Queen was not the wife of the King, but the mother. Part of the job description for the Queen was to intercede on behalf of the people. This can be seen in 1 Kings 2:13-23:
So we observe that the Queen Mother:
1. Sits on the right hand of the King (a position of honour and influence)
2. The King honours her
3. Her requests are given guarantee to be granted.
And so we pray to our Queen Mother – “Hail, Holy Queen” – because:
1. She is more exulted than Bathsheba because of the perfect honoring she receives from her Divine Son
2. She fulfils the duty of her office more perfectly. She is, together with her spouse the Holy Spirit, our advocate. Her intercessory prayers are therefore very powerful. This is her role as the Mediatrix, which was most notably fulfilled by being the channel through which the Saviour would come into the world.
3. New Eve
We know that Jesus is the New Adam, but the Early Church also believed that Mary is the New Eve, a co-redeemer. Jesus did not descend onto the Earth alone (which he could very well have done) but chose to implicate Mary in the plan of salvation to bring life, just as the original Adam had a partner in the fall to bring death. And so the words of Scripture are fulfilled also for the Second Adam: “Then the LORD God said, ‘It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.’” (Genesis 2:18). Thus, she is the co-redemptrix per excellence, as the helper ordained for the Second Adam in the work of redemption.
[T] Eve gave to Adam (”man”) the forbidden fruit to bring about death
[F] Mary, through her obedience (”let it be to me according to your word” – Luke 1:38), undid the disobedience of Eve to bring about eternal life.
[T] Eve gave to Adam (”man”) the forbidden fruit to bring about death
[F] Mary gave to man (”mankind”) the fruit of her womb (Luke 1:42) in order to bring about life.
Following this pattern, we can deduce that:
[T] Eve returned to dust (Gen 3:19)
[F] Mary was taken into Heaven (Rev 12).
[T] Adam and eve were created without the stain of original sin but lost it through their disobedience
[F] Just as New Adam was created without original sin, Mary was also (as a helper fit for him), and through their perfect obedience (culminating at Calvary, where both hearts were pierced for our sake) maintained this throughout their lifetime. This is the dogma of Immaculate Conception.
[T] The name “Eve” signifies that she is “the mother of all living” (Genesis 3:20).
[F] New Eve is the new Mother of all those who are alive in Christ . When Jesus gave Mary to the beloved disciple at the cross to be his mother, He gave her as a mother to all of us (John 19:27); note that he is mentioned by this title rather than any particular name – the ‘beloved disciple’ is each and every one of us. Being one of the seven last words on the cross, he spoke universal words (not the particulars and the domestic, along the lines of, “oh, I forgot about mum. John, look after her). She is our mother, because she is the mother of Christ, and the Body of Christ is the Church. And because she is our Mother, we honour her, as God tells us to (Exo 20:12).
4. The Woman of Revelation, Our Mother
Here is the culmination of all the previous types, where (in case you missed them previously!) all is revealed in glory.
The Lady of Revelation is not only Jerusalem and the Church: “And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars” (Revelation 12:1). The child who she gives birth to is an actual person, as is the dragon. It stands to sense that the Mother is also an actual person who gave birth to the child – Mary:
• [F] Arc of the New Covenant: revealed in Rev 11:19 (a verse before the one above – keep in mind that chapters were put in place later)
• [F] Queen Mother: Jesus is the Davidiac King, so Mary must be the Davidiac Queen Mother. This is confirmed by her coronation in the Heavens with the twelve stars. (Revelation 12:1)
• [F] New Eve: We see here that she is the mother of all Christians: “Then the dragon was angry with the woman , and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus” (Rev 12 :17). This confirms Christ’s words to us: “behold your mother!” (John 19:27).
The mystery of Mary’s greatness adds (only for our perception, of course) to the glory of God in manifold ways as a sign of His overabundant love and grace. What king so majestic, so perfect in charity, so generous and glorious would fail to honour and glorify his own mother, restrict our love for her? Indeed, Mary’s perfection does not diminish the glory or worship due to God, but “magnifies the Lord” (Luke 1:46). The abundance of grace which God has ordained to allow Himself to be moved beyond justice and beyond logic, beyond His hour that “has not yet come” is indeed beyond astounding – should we not be stupefied by this staggering overabundance of grace, in Cana as well as in the present? Let us entrust ourselves and the fate of all the world to her who Christ Himself has given to us, that all may be drawn closer to Christ and rest in His salvation.
Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.
Immaculate heart of Mary, pray for us.
Arc of the Covenant, pray for us.
Queen of Angels, pray for us.
Mary, Mother of Christians, pray for us.
I see the ‘New Eve’ section has a slight editing problem (the same item is repeated). Not to worry, I’ve found a better one to quote:
TTM
Very well done. Thanks.
Lorry,
good questions
Mary is an intercessor, but not just one among many. She is first among them. And I think only a divine gaze is able to penetrate this truth – ie: to seek to see things as God does, in the light of his predelection.
The orthodox say: if Christ is the head of the Church, Mary is the neck! What flows from Him to the rest of the Body flows through her. A great image, and when they ‘write’ necks in icons, they do fat ones – because the breath of the Holy Spirit blows through the holy!
The key to the power of her intercession is her perfect union of heart with the heart of Jesus, her total union of intention. It flows from being full of grace, without sin, totally given in grace, all for Him. She is his biological mother of course, but more than that she is blessed among women, because she believed that the promises made her by the Lord would be fulfilled – she better than anyone heard the Word of God and kept it. Through love, our intentions grow closer together – we see this in true friendship even. Our wills unite. He is of course her finality and she is fully actuated by Him in terms of the divine life in her and in terms of her will coming fully into act in love. And the pure in heart shall see God. They shall see in a divine gaze of wisdom, see things from His light.
Her intercession is heightened at the cross, because she is commanded by the Son of God to behold her son in all of us – to behold us as sons in the Son. And she hears the Word of God and keeps it. So, while she remains all for Him, totally given to Him, she allows herself to be totally given to us as the ‘rest of her children – those who believe in Christ and keep the commandments’. She allows herself to be our mother because it is His will. And so she loves us with the same love that she loves Him. That is marvelous, but it is an extension of entering into His life, because He first loves us with the same love by which He loves the Father, that is by the Holy Spirit, and that is indeed His gift to Mary and to us – that we can love the Father in that same love and each other in that same divine love.
Now, when there is no hindrance to love, no resistance through sin, there is the opportunity to receive grace upon grace. With every cooperation with grace, we are more disposed to grace, and God gives more because we can always go further in love. Love is infinite – (infinite in God in act and infinite in us in potential, with no lid on it). Thus, the one who loves God the most, unites the most to His heart, and thus to His will, to His intimate intention. In that unity of intention there is the deepest intimacy and it is from that intimacy that she intercedes for us. The prayer of the just man finds favour with God. The one who keeps the commandments finds that Christ and the Father come to Him and make their home in Him. From this full inhabitation by God, comes the power of her prayer also. He has chosen to heed her voice, to respond to her the longings and thirsts of her heart. They are always in accordance with His will in any case, and He doesn’t ‘need’ her, but He has chosen to associate her with His work of redemption as He has chosen to associate all of us by extension. “They are my brother and sister and mother.”
The Woman is the summit of creation – (we see it in Genesis 2 with her place as helper in the order of love, of finality for the man (at last! here is flesh of my flesh and bone of my bone!). We see it in the miracle of personal fecundity that takes place in her on the natural level as the imaging of God’s infinite personal fecundity. And we see it most of all in the redemption, in the recreation, when in her the Word will take flesh, will unite to human nature, and at the cross, with her as first recipient, give Himself to the Father and to us, give the gift of His love for the Father to us. From the cross, the pierced side, He forms a Bride, and He shows the real meaning of the treasure of the Woman. She will reign with Him for ever, as Queen – the Church in heaven, and there, mysteriously accepting this gift in person is the Woman who will also symbolise the Church in Rev 12, whose silent ‘yes’ at the cross exceeds even her ‘fiat’ at the annunciation. She becomes fully fecund in suffering – she who had no pain in child birth at Bethlehem, gives birth to the Church’s members in the deepest agony (it is for this reason that Apocalypse shows the birth in pain, it is the presentation of her motherhood in its divine aspect, and in its human aspect, in one gaze).
No one mourns a dead child more than its mother. It is a unique longing of the heart. And that maternal longing of the heart becomes intercession for us when we are far from God – when we are dead through sin. No one wants her child’s good more than a mother, and that maternal longing of the heart becomes intercession for us to go further in love, to know the happiness of love that she has always known, and most of all to love Him as He should be loved, as she has always loved Him.
So in short, yes: “Mary help us” is also translated: “Mary pray for us” – for that is HOW she helps us. But help us she indeed does.
Some interesting news that hit the headlines today, I thought it was relevant in light of discussions we’ve had over the last day or so about the early Church being Catholic (with a capital ‘C’)…
Archeologists find oldest Catholic church
Amman, Jun. 10, 2008 (CWNews.com) – The Jordan Times reports that a group of archeologists have unearthed the world’s oldest Catholic church in Rihab, Jordan.
The church, which was built underground, dates to somewhere between 33 and 70 AD. Rihab is located about 30 miles east of the Jordan River and a roughly equal distance north of the Jordanian capital, Amman. The region is home to 30 other ancient churches.
I think the question of intercession of angels and Saints in heaven necessarily precedes the understanding of Mary’s role. Here are some Scriptural basis for this practice help our separated brethren understand this Catholic and Orthodox (and some Anglican, I understand?) practice, since the Holy Writ is a sure common ground between all Christians.
The Protestant understanding seems to be that Saints in heaven cannot be called to intercede, “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (I Timothy 2:5). This one needs to be read in context, however, because it is Christ Himself who calls us into communion in Him, with all that this implies.
The preceding verses in the very same chapter call for intercession from the Church and, further, specifically endorses it in its goodness and acceptability in God’s sight. So the principle of sole mediatorship does not exclude human intercessors:
This is the case because saints are the Body of Christ – we participate in Christ’s mediatorship:
The Church becomes one with Christ through spiritual marriage:
Thus, Christ and the Church are one flesh, as husband and wife are. This also implies an indissoluble bond of communion within the Church as well:
Christ is our forerunner on our behalf, and is our eternal high priest in heaven:
The Church is also in heaven, since death cannot separate us from Christ or His Body:
Hense, the Saints in heaven are, though without body until the resurrection, alive in Christ:
Christ intercedes for us, since intercession is a priestly ministry:
Thus, the Church on earth and in heaven share in this intercessory ministry in our royal priesthood through her belonging in the eternal priesthood of Christ – our mediatorship through Christ’s sole mediatorship, in His Body:
Catholics call the heavenly Church “the Church Triumphant”, and the earthly Church “the Church Militant” – the one body consists of many parts, and one part cannot say to another, “I have no need of you” (which goes both ways – those in heaven need us out of perfected love, and those on earth need them for their closeness to Christ) or, indeed, “because you are dead, you do not belong to the body” – Again, this indissoluble communion must not be “put asunder” by any man. Those worthy of honour – those who have run the race (1 Corinthians 9:24) and are crowned in glory (James 1:12, II Timothy 4:8, 1 Peter 5:4, Revelation 2:10) – are given honour (as opposed to worship, which is due to God alone), so that the whole body may rejoice together:
We therefore honour them and follow their example, that we too may be holy and worthy of imitation:
The communion of saints is powerful, since we are united through the one Body of Christ and the one Spirit of God:
Thus they lovingly bear our burdens through intercession, as we honour them in return:
It is not a false and unholy communion through necromancy, which is forbidden by God (Deuteronomy 18:10-11) and thus also the Church (Catechism of the Catholic Church #2116), but true and holy communion through the Body of Christ and the spirit of God. Hence, the Church in heaven are aware of the Church on earth, in the one Body of Christ through the one Spirit:
[the passage speaks of those who have died in faith, mentioned in Hebrews 11]
because love is stronger than death:
Thus, they are aware of our requests – our need for their assistance – so that this call for those in the Body of Christ still applies:
Just as they were appealed to on earth:
The Church in heaven are the saints perfected in holiness (here lies evidence for purgation which occurs to the saints after death and before heaven), and so their prayers have great powers:
We also see this in John’s vision of heaven, where the angels and the 24 elders (possibly representative of the people of the Old and the New covenant – 12 sons/tribes of Jacob and 12 Apostles/new covenant saints) – who are like the angels – offer up saints’ prayers (presumably from the earthly Church) mixed with the incense, just as priests symbolically do today during liturgy. We see that this assists them to rise up to God:
Scary – now the arguments must begin: is it in fact the world’s oldest seventh day adventist church? JW temple? Mormon temple? Anglican church? Presbyterian? Evangelical bandstand? etc.
I probably should’ve broken that (#38) up; it’s something I’d compiled earlier. I thought it might be good for archiving though – something to refer to later.
Poorclear,
So in short, yes: “Mary help us” is also translated: “Mary pray for us” – for that is HOW she helps us. But help us she indeed does.
Would you say the same (could you, even?) about the inscription on a tombstone I saw on Banks’ Peninsula once: “Sweet Heart of Mary, be their Salvation?”
Or the saying popular among some members of my extended family: “If Jesus closes the door, Mother Mary will open the window?”
On your second post:
Scary – now the arguments must begin: is it in fact the world’s oldest seventh day adventist church? JW temple? Mormon temple? Anglican church? Presbyterian? Evangelical bandstand? etc.
Well, it’s easy to tell if the church is Anglican. Simply tell the headstones in the graveyard you are planning on moving the pew seating/flower arranging rota/kitchen facilities around, and listen for the bones to rattle. Or you could stand in the middle of the cemetery and declaim
“Praise Ye the Lord”
And if see if the bones respond “The Lord’s Name be Praised” (if Praised is two syllables with a stress, “praise-ed” and/or sung and chanted, then you’ve struck a High Church parish.)
You could also try “O Lord, Save the Queen” (R: “And mercifully hear us when we call upon Thee”) or possibly “Send peace in our time, O Lord” (R: “For there is none that fightest for us, but only Thou O Lord”)
More simply, look for banners or cushions: Anything by the Association of Anglican Women, the Country Womens’ Institute or the Mothers’ Union, Anglican without doubt.
Ha, yes, very amusing.
On the other hand, proclaim “O Lord Save the Queen” in that 1st century church found in Rihab, Jordan (post #37 above) and see what the bones say.
Nada.
Greg,
Well, OK, you’d have to say “King” of course, but the Communion of Saints makes straaange things possible….
More seriously, it was a joke. Come on. Not even a little grin before jumping back into the fray?
:mrgreen:
“Sweet Heart of Mary, be their Salvation?”
Having come to faith in Christ through Mary, this rings very true for me. Ave Maria, Dominus tecum!