Hi!
Lately I have been thinking about heaven and hell. To be honest it’s not something I think about much. Actually strangely I feel feel quite bad writing about this. I think this might be because the Church has made such an effort to move a way from preaching about ‘fire and brimstone’ to preaching about God’s love. Which is much nicer!
I mean this passage is kind of scary, and not something you would want to happen to you! :
“As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 13:40-42, quoting Jesus)
The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that “To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self- exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”
So, I thought I would share with you my (conveniently saved!) msn conversation with my friend which got me thinking about this …
Me - I guess I don’t believe in a hard out ‘hell’ I believe in being with or without God. Hell is just separation from God.
T - But the bible constantly talks about hell as being a REAL place
Me – Hell is being without God – not being with him – you will be in a place without God, because you have free will to reject God’s grace.
T - Yes, and that is where Satan is, so it’s not meant to be a very nice place.
Me - Hmmm – I just find it hard to swallow that a God of love would actually let you go to a fiery hell.
T - He is a fair God of love though – that is everyone’s choice
Me - I think it is figurative – So do you think your friends will go to a fiery hell unless they become Christian?
T - Unfortunately yeah I think everyone does. What is the basis to show that all the talk about hell is merely figurative?
Me – What’s the basis for thinking it’s not? Jesus always spoke in parables – fire is a human concept – He had to talk in human concepts. Its not that conceivable that there’s this raging fire someplace…
T - Then what is the figurative explanation of torment? I.e. we will be tormented in hell?
Me – I think people are tormented everyday on earth by their own choices and sins.
T – Well personally I don’t feel tormented by my sins. But I would feel tormented if I was in a burning lake of fire.
Me - hmm I think deep down people are tormented by sin – but yeah I guess maybe some people are happy sinning.
But then when they die they will be tormented by their sins because they will be given knowledge of God and feel so ashamed of themselves – and know they have chosen the path of sin and not chosen God – so be tormented by that.
T – Ok, if that’s so, so then where do they go?
Me – They just don’t go to God.
T – So if they don’t go to God, they must go to hell, where they feel remorseful, and this is like torment?
Me - But more like emotional pain analogous to physical pain, because people won’t actually have bodies to burn and fire is just a human concept.
T - for ETERNITY!
Me – are you asking or stating?
T – Well, stating, cos that’s what it says in bible
and so….either way – be it physical or emotional torment – its quite scary – I hope I don’ go there!!
So either way, going to heaven is IMPORTANT, yes? But I agree it shouldn’t be our only focus.
My motivation for being a Christian, is firstly because I BELIEVE in it and it follows that Christians will live a Christian life, and so do ‘good’……and as a result of believing, we go to heaven.
Hi eye-Witness,
I would tend to agree with your friend that hell is indeed a real place, rather than merely a figurative expression.
I admit it is nice to think that no one will ever end up in a ‘fiery furnace’, but unfortunately this is not what the Bible tells us. In my opinion the Bible is clear on this matter, and so I do not think we should try to convince ourselves differently.
The bible is always true, but not always in a literal sense. I don’t think the fact the bible says something literally means it is LITERALLY true.
There are many levels of truth in the bible. One of them is religious truth – For example “fiery hell” is true in the sense that it is an extremely unpleasant state to be in, in that you are separated from God – so it is real in that sense – not necessarily real in the sense that you will actually be in fire.
I agree that the Bible contains figurative language. But if hell is not real, then what do you mean by it is:
“an extremely unpleasant state to be in” ?
“Extremely unpleasant” seems more like a nice and politically correct euphemism to describe the reality that the Bible tells us it will be a place of eternal torment and fire.
Hi marler 1 – i’m not saying hell isn’t real – i think it is a description of a real state of being – just not necessarily an actual place in the literal physical sense you are meaning.
Hi eyeWitness
Hell is indeed an actual place like heaven and purgatory are real places. There are already at least two bodies in heaven (Mary and Jesus) and after the Resurrection of the Body the people in hell will have ressurected bodies that will experience real pain and moral suffering of the soul for all eternity just as those in heaven will experience Gods love for all eternity. It is hard to fathom that hell is real because we love God and would hate to be seperated from him but… the Catechism tells us; (CCC 1033 – 1037) (391 – 395);
The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity, immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin decend into hell where they suffer the punishment of hell – eternal fire. The chief punishment of hell is eternal seperation from God…
The affirmation of sacred scripture and the teaching of the Church on the subject of hell are called to the responsibility incombant on man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny…
Hell is not merely a nothingness… Satan is truly an angel who rejected God, Satan was once in Heaven with Our Lord, he is now in Hell.
Don’t be fooled, the Bible does hold literal truth. Heaven and Hell are both very real.
I think eyeWitness’ point is not that Hell doesn’t exist – it does. I think the point is as to the definiton of Hell.
I personally think that it is extremely limiting for us to think of such places as Heaven and Hell in terms of our limited understanding, but that is what the Bible is trying to do. Since we are finite beings, we can’t properly grasp eternity. Since we are physical beings, we can’t truly grasp pain that isn’t experienced. Fire, brimstone – they are images used to explain Hell, but I don’t think they are literal as they are human concepts. I don’t think that Satan is a dude in red pants with a pitchfork and horns – it is an image.
However, the Bible is clear on the existence of Hell – let’s not kid ourselves about that. The other language used to describe it is there to try and provide an understanding of Hell to those of us who could never truly understand it…until we’re there (God forbid!)
The point I’m trying to make is that Hell exists, and that it is a place of immeasurable suffering and pain. The images of fire and brimstone are used to tell us that, but I don’t think there is actual fire there – just like Heaven doesn’t consist of clouds.
I’ve heard it said that Heaven, Hell and Purgatory are more like states than physical places. So, while they do exist, they’re not exactly how we’d imagine them being (as within space-time) I think.
I came across a pamphlet about Saint Faustina’s visions of Heaven, Hell and Purgatory a few years ago, which was quite insightful. I could only find on the ‘net the latter (I guess this is more important because people are less inclined to believe in the reality of hell nowadays): Sister Faustina’s vision. Also related is the vision of hell at Fatima. We should keep in mind that these are private revelations, approved by the Holy See.
It dawned on me after reading about those that this present life, even if it be a hundred years, is really nothing compared to eternity. All of life’s pleasures pass in a fleeting moment – “vanity of vanities! All is vanity” (Ecclesiastes 1:2).
I think too that it’s true charity to “instruct the ignorant” (one of the spiritual works of mercy) regarding the existence of hell. It may make the difference of life or death – an eternal difference. This is why I feel annoyed whenever a gospel of fluffy love is preached – it’s really far from loving, when so much is at stake for the souls.
I think we would do well to heed St. Augustin’s teaching:
Two criminals were crucified with Christ.
One was saved; do not despair.
One was not; do not presume.
We can neither act in fear and let despair overtake us, nor be so lax as to be presumptious of God’s mercy. The only option available is the one which transcends the two: trust. I think that’s why the Divine Mercy image is inscribed “Jesus I trust in you.” Trust stems from the virtue of Hope.
So, full of confidence, we should consecrate ourselves to Mary’s immaculate and maternal heart and pray the Divine Mercy chaplet and the Holy Rosary, encouraging others to do the same, for the love of God and for the salvation of souls.
What you say is true James.
The old question: “Is Hell and place or a state.”
Same question could be posed for Heaven too.
What Agnes said is important though. In Heaven there are 2 glorified bodies, that of Jesus and Mary.
We can’t really know exactly what our glorified bodies will be like. St Paul talks about them taking on the aspect of immortality. St Thomas Aquinas goes much further and talks about a spiritualisation and divinisation of the body, as does Pope John Paul II in Theology of the Body.
So, while our glorified bodies won’t be corporeal like they are now, they will be bodies, with new aspects that we can’t really imagine now.
Same goes for those who are condemned to Hell. They will receive ressurected bodies, and their suffering will also include their bodies.
In fact, the many Doctors and Saints of the Church have talked about how the suffering in Hell will correspond to the types of sins people commited that landed them there.
E.g., for those who commited sins of the flesh, they will be consumed and devoured by suffering in their flesh, knawed away by other demons…etc…etc…you get the picture.
It’s a big question.
Pope John Paul II says in the Theology of the Body, that in fact, due to our masculinity and femininity being an ontological truth for us (meaning at the very core of our being), there will be a certain masculinity and femininity to our existence in Heaven. These things won’t be wiped out, but transformed and elevated by grace in the ressurection of the body, in a spiritual sense.
We won’t be angels in Heaven but we will like them. Christ even said that.
Eyewitness, I agree that it can be misleading speaking of hell as a ‘place’, since that could imply that there is a place from which our Almighty (omnipresent) God is absent.
Of course, when we speak about Heaven and Hell we can’t help but use spatial-temporal language. So provided we are aware that our words fall a little short (though are still able to express what is essential) we’ll be ok.
I am very interested in the problem of Hell though – it is very interesting, and possibly helpful for understanding Heaven too. How can we really be separated from God?
I am reminded of two scriptures: one in which Christ is described as the “cornerstone” and another in which He is a “stumbling block”. There is something in this…. Christ, of course, is the same yesterday, today and always; it is we who change. We are the ones who can either find Christ as our ultimate Foundation and Support, or else, through our unbelief, come crashing against Him.
Similarly, while for the saints in Heaven, God’s presence is infinite happiness, glory, bliss, etc, for those who reject His free gift of Love and Mercy, God’s presence becomes a torment; His Light becomes a ‘burning fire’, and His Gaze an unbearable burden, because they have chosen to count God as evil. They have chosen to hate what is good.
We cannot banish God any more than we can bring Him into existence. He will be our reward or He will be our punishment…
What do you think?
(CS Lewis wrote a very good little (fiction) book which explores these things
called “The Great Divorce”. Like all of his stuff, it is well worth a read.)
Scary post eyeWitness, I mean reading that makes you think about hell and how sad it would be, so good post.
The word Gehenna was used by Jesus to describe hell. This was an actual valley where bodies were dumped and the fire never went out in Jerusalem. It was like a rubbish dump and the bodies of criminals etc would go there. Remember our souls are eternal, we cannot die because we are made in the image of God who is eternal. Therefore you have to spend your eternity somewhere. Remember earth is not a state of being it is a place. The saints in heaven are even more alive than we are according to the bible, therefore the pain in hell would be more real than we feel. O ya and the horn’s on the devil come from a mis-translation. It is a word that means beautiful, he was created like this and it is partly why he got so proud. A shame too many of us fall for this false beauty and we go to hell if we go.
Credo