Don’t preach it, sister!

Hi all, in light of recent comments about the LCWR, Marty thought he’d do a bit of investigating himself.

Marty would like to alert you to the fact that the controversial LCWR Conference wrapped up last Friday.

Here is a previous video of the key-note speaker, Barbara Marx Hubbard, that they invited for this recent conference: video.

Fr Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, who developed the idea of creation evolving into the Cosmic Christ, and who was censored by the Vatican, would have found a kindred spirit in Barbara Marx Hubbard. She has coined the terms ‘human birthing’ and ‘conscious evolution training’. She calls herself a ‘futurist’.

During the Conference, Hubbard, who praised the ‘evolutionary leadership’ of the LCWR called them the ‘best seedbed’ for ‘evolving the Church’.

Have a look at Hubbard in the video link and you’ll begin to understand why the Vatican is concerned about whom the LCWR ask to speak to them at their Conferences, who is forming their minds, and whom they promote as trustworthy.

Here are some of the closing comments made by Sr Farrel (President of the LCWR) in response to Hubbard, as reported by Catholic News Service.

In light of Hubbard’s talk, Sr Farrel said, ‘It is easy to see this LCWR moment as a microcosm of a world in flux’.

‘The cosmic breaking down and breaking through we are experiencing gives us a broader context’, she said.

Sr. Farrell believes the reason ‘many institutions, traditions and structures seem to wither’ is that ‘the philosophical underpinnings of the way we hold reality really no longer hold’.

‘The human family is not served by individualism, patriarchy, a scarcity mentality or competition’, she explained.

Moreover, the LCWR president asserted that the world is ‘outgrowing the dualistic constructs’ of ‘good/bad’ and ‘domination/submission.’

‘Breaking through in their place are equality, communion, collaboration, synchronicity, expansiveness, abundance, wholeness, mutuality, intuitive knowing and love’, she said.

As is well known, there has been some controversy around this particular Conference, as they were going to discuss what they would do in responding to the Vatican’s calls to convert and become Catholic again. Will they return to the true Church? Bishop Sartain, who is charged with bringing them back into the Flock, offered to attend the Conference (and in a spirit of dialogue); they rejected his offer.

To get some handle on how long this problem has been going on and how serious it is, you should buy the book Sisters in Crisis: The Tragic Unravelling of Women’s Religious Communities by Ann Carey. She chronicles the infection of New Age and the infestation of every other secular radical agenda into the LCWR and its associated communities. These things have poisoned the LCWR and the poor Sisters who take their cues from it. Here is an interview with Ann Carey, the author of Sisters in Crisis, from EWTN. You really should watch it: video.

Sisters in Crisis gives a far more mature and realistic account of things than the insipid account that Sr Schneider renders in her book which was promoted by Lady Pat Lythe in the NZ Catholic.

Ann Carey attended the key note address by Hubbard at this recent LCWR Conference and wrote a report on it. Read Fr Z’s take on it. Also read the original report to which Fr Z links.

Now watch this video of Sr Joan Chittister on CNN; she is one of the main protagonists for the LCWR and all that they stand for. They have awarded her their most prestigious award in the past: Sr Chittister.

Sr Chittister is lovely isn’t she? So feminine; such a Bride of Christ.

Additionally, you should read these summary blog posts from Fr Z, who summarizes the troubles with the ‘Holy Nuns’. The one post that is an absolute must read is this one: Nuns Gone Wild: A Trip Down Memory Lane which goes through some of the prominent leaders of the LCWR and their history, and tell us what they are well known for. Some of this is not pretty reading. Here is an example:

Donna Quinn: an advocate for legalized abortion. As late as 2009 she was engaged in escorting women to abortion clinics in the Chicago area so they could abort their babies safe from pro-life protesters. She is now a coordinator of the radically liberal National Coalition of American Nuns (NCAN), which stands in opposition against the Catholic Church’s position on abortion, homosexuality, contraception, and the exclusively male priesthood.

And another…

Margaret Farley: over the years, she has taken positions favorable to abortion, same-sex ‘marriage’, sterilization of women, divorce and the ‘ordination’ of women to the priesthood. Farley, who taught Christian ethics at Yale Divinity School, is well known for her radical feminist ideas and open dissent from Church teaching.

And another…

Jeanine Gramick: co-foundress of the homosexual, lesbian activist organization New Ways Ministry. After a review of her public activities on behalf of the Church that concluded in a finding of grave doctrinal error, the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF) declared in 1999 that she should no longer be engaged in pastoral work with homosexual persons.

That’s just a few, but you should read them all.

Another book worth reading is Ungodly Rage: The Hidden Face of Catholic Feminism by Donna Steichen. This also considers the demonic invasion of New Age radical feminism into women’s Religious Orders in the USA, and the West. It’s sobering reading, but also very informative.

How did all this begin to happen you may ask?

Read this blog entry to begin to understand how psychologists Dr William Coulson and Dr Carl Rogers began to ‘de-programme’ many religious sisters by infiltrating their groups, and filling them with new psycho-babble ideas. This is no joke, it really happened, and is well substantiated. You should read the blog I’ve linked to.

Coulson:

Rogers and I…called it Therapy for Normals, TFN. The IHMs (Sisters of the Immaculate Heart) had some 60 schools when we started; at the end, they had one. There were some 615 nuns when we began. Within a year after our first interventions, 300 of them were petitioning Rome to get out of their vows. They did not want to be under anyone’s authority, except the authority of their imperial inner selves.

Coulson:

…it destroyed Catholic religious profession, just as it would destroy the practice of medicine if medicine took seriously the idea that all the answers are within the students; so, too, did it destroy the vows of the nuns. There were many priests who didn’t even bother to get laicized. They just left, saying, ‘My vows don’t count for anything, because they came from somewhere else; they didn’t come from within.’

Kathy Schiffer:

In the end, 90% of the IHM sisters — encouraged by the humanistic, person-centered psychology of Rogers and Coulson — sought release from their vows.

Here is Cardinal Raymond Burke (from a couple of days ago) speaking about the LCWR and their erroneous understanding of religious life: video

Notice his key quote: ‘If it can’t be reformed, it has no right to continue.’ If the LCWR does not want to become Catholic again, then they cannot be recognized as a Catholic canonical entity anymore, and have no right to act as such. They will be scuttled. Hopefully some will bob to the surface so that the Barque of Peter can fish them from the stormy seas, but others, by their own choice, may well be found with the rotting hull – the remains of their own ship, which is the LCWR and all that it stands for.

Hmm.

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    Comments: 117

    1. John Jensen August 14, 2012 at 3:22 pm

      Pantheism, in short.

      jj

    2. bamac August 14, 2012 at 4:11 pm

      Marty,

      Thank you for all the effort you put into this post.

      If it were possible for souls in Heaven to be sad, then how sad ,indeed , would be the founders of the orders that are part of LCWR,when they see where so many present day superiors of their congregations , are leading souls in their care today.

      Mrs Mac

    3. Chris Sullivan August 14, 2012 at 5:33 pm

      1. Marty’s characterisation of the LCWR sisters as “not Catholic” is untrue, uncharitable and contrary to Catholic doctrine (Catholicity is determined by baptism, not what one happens to think about this or that matter of doctrine; which speaks to degree of communion not whether or not one is Catholic).

      2. Pope John Paul II endorsed a number of Fr Pierre Teilhard de Chardin’s ideas and Pope Benedict XVI stated in 2009 :

      “It’s the great vision that later Teilhard de Chardin also had: At the end we will have a true cosmic liturgy, where the cosmos becomes a living host” and “Let’s pray to the Lord that he help us be priests in this sense… to help in the transformation of the world in adoration of God, beginning with ourselves.”

      http://ncronline.org/news/ecology/pope-cites-teilhardian-vision-cosmos-living-host

      The Church has moved on from earlier criticism of Fr Teilhard de Chardin’s ideas.

      en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Teilhard_de_Chardin

      3. A more balanced assesment of Barbara Marx Hubbard’s contribution to the LCWR conference can be found here:

      http://ncronline.org/news/women-religious/catholic-theology-inspires-lcwr-keynote-speaker

      and

      http://ncronline.org/news/women-religious/keynote-lcwr-seed-bed-21st-century

      4. Whatever sisters Donna Quinn, Margaret Farley, or Jeanine Gramick may have said or done is irrelevant to the LCWR because none of them were ever LCWR leaders.

      http://lcwr.org/about/officers

      Marty and Fr Z need to get their facts straight and stop spreading hate and lies about the LCWR.

      5. Archbishop Peter Sartain, the man assigned to work with the LCWR, was positively glowing in his endorsement of the LCWR whom he PRAISED after their recent conference:

      Archbishop Peter Sartain of Seattle Praises Women Religious Conference

      Releases Statement Assuring Commitment In Addressing Issues of Reform

      ST. LOUIS, Missouri, AUG. 13, 2012 (Zenit.org).- Archbishop Peter Sartain of Seattle released a statement coinciding with the conclusion of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious’ (LCWR) annual assembly. The Archbishop of Seattle was appointed the Holy See’s delegate to the LCWR following the release of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith’s (CDF) “Doctrinal Assessment of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious.” The report called for a reform within the Leadership Conference.

      The annual assembly concluded last Friday and saw the participation of over 900 delegates representing 80% of the United States women religious in the country. During the conference LCWR delegates also discussed their response to the report issued by the CDF (CDF) last April.

      In his statement, Archbishop Sartain praised the contributions and continued work of the LCWR in the United States.

      Archbishop Peter Sartain of Seattle has released a statement praising the lasting contribution and continued work of religious women in the United States, for which, he says, they deserve our respect, support, thanks and prayers.

      “As an association of women religious, the LCWR brings unique gifts to its members and to the Church at large. This uniqueness includes sensitivity to suffering, whether in Latin America or the inner-city; whether in the life of an unborn child or the victim of human trafficking,” the statement read.

      The American prelate also assured his commitment to addressing the issues raised by the CDF’s Doctrinal Assessment “in an atmosphere of prayer and respectful dialogue.”

      “We must also work toward clearing up any misunderstandings, and I remain truly hopeful that we will work together without compromising Church teaching or the important role of the LCWR. I look forward to our continued discussions as we collaborate in promoting consecrated life in the United States,” the Archbishop’s statement read.

      According to Vatican Radio, Franciscan Sister Pat Farrell, outgoing president of the LCWR said that the organization said would begin dialogue with Archbishop Sartain, “from a stance of deep prayer that values mutual respect, careful listening and open dialogue”. The Archbishop is expected to attend the organization’s board meeting August 11.

      During the assembly, members also passed a resolution calling on Congress to pass the Dream Act and comprehensive immigration reform that includes the reunification of families and a path to citizenship for undocumented immigrants living in the United States. They passed a second resolution that committed them to work for the abolition of human trafficking, calling it a form of modern day slavery.

      http://www.zenit.org/article-35365?l=english

      Go the sisters !

      God Bless

    4. Helens Bay August 14, 2012 at 7:46 pm

      What would we do without balance and truth!
      thank you Chris

    5. bamac August 14, 2012 at 7:59 pm

      Balance and Truth from the report in NCR? Really?!!!!

    6. banter August 14, 2012 at 9:13 pm

      Barbara Marx Hubbard. What an extraordinary woman. An amazing amount of twaddle. I have looked at various YouTube clips and it’s just sheer utter nonsense from a Catholic perspective. . And that’s fine I’m sure for people who are into that sort of futurist thinking. But a keynote speaker at the LCWR conference?! I’m blown away by your post this evening Marty about the state of the nuns and their religious orders in the US.
      Two comments to make about all of this. Firstly, Im pretty sure the jo-average Catholic layperson hasnt a clue how far removed from church teaching and common sense reality these women have become. I put myself in that group and I hadn’t a clue. Secondly, they are obviously American and the question is are our NZ nuns mad like this ? If so I haven’t met them. So can we assume it’s largely an American problem for the Americans and rest a little easier here in NZ?

    7. Dei Verbum August 14, 2012 at 10:03 pm

      Banter

      So can we assume it’s largely an American problem for the Americans and rest a little easier here in NZ?

      don’t be complacent they have been here for some time.

      The Mercy Spiritual centre is usually a treat
      http://www.mercycentreauckland.org.nz/

      or consider these upcoming gems
      http://www.aucklandcatholic.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/Brochure-2012WordofGodSymposium-sml.pdf

      and I see the brick re-cycler is a feature act.

      Deacon Christopher;

      when do you start to speak with the Church? or is that year 5 of deaconate training?

      Pray for the Church!

    8. Dei Verbum August 14, 2012 at 10:04 pm
    9. Valerie August 14, 2012 at 10:06 pm

      Wow, what a sad situation.

      Thank you for your post Mr Rethul.

      I really feel sorry for these sisters. They have made some big mistakes and ended up in some serious spiritual sickness, heresy, and dodgy alliances.

      We must pray for them.

      I would never even consider joining a group like them. It would be torture. All the young women I know, who have looked, are looking, or who have departed for religious life, have gone towards the more traditional ones that Ann Carey speaks about in the video on EWTN. World Youth Day is amazing like that. So many young religious in habits, beaming, full of life and full of Christ, loving the Pope, loving Mary, loving Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. So amazing.

      Marty’s characterisation of the LCWR sisters as “not Catholic” is untrue, uncharitable and contrary to Catholic doctrine (Catholicity is determined by baptism, not what one happens to think about this or that matter of doctrine; which speaks to degree of communion not whether or not one is Catholic).

      To me, Mr Rethul is spot on in his comments.

      That’s one way of looking at being Catholic Deacon Sullivan. But if one abandons definitive Church teaching, and abandons a Catholic sense of obedience to the Church, especially the Pope, and is always playing around with New Age Gnostic heresy, never really speaking about Jesus, or the sacraments, then one is no longer properly Catholic in heart and mind, even though the seal of Christ remains on one’s soul from Baptism.

      It’s like a baptized Catholic leaving the Church and becoming a Jehovah’s Witness. They might have been baptized, but they no longer profess the Catholic Faith. Therefore, they are not Catholic properly speaking; the life of the Faith is not active in them. Many of these nuns, in their attitudes, beliefs, spiritual practices, and life-styles, no longer profess the true Faith, and are no longer proper Catholic religious.

      That’s what Cardinal Burke is meaning. They have made religious profession but have abandoned what that means and demands of them : obedience to the Vicar of Christ on earth, and absolute adherence to Jesus.

      The Church has moved on from earlier criticism of Fr Teilhard de Chardin’s ideas.

      I think we’re talking about Barbara Hubbard not de Chardin. Hubbard is who they invited to speak, and promoted.

      A more balanced assesment of Barbara Marx Hubbard’s contribution to the LCWR conference can be found here

      NCR balanced? I think not. No surprise that you like Hubbard Deacon Sullivan; you think you’ve transmogrified into a hybrid of Jew, Catholic, Anglican, Buddhist, and Muslim – as others have pointed out often on BeingFrank. Soon you’ll evolve into Mr Spock. If you can’t see what’s wrong with Hubbard being promoted by “Catholic” religious sisters, then you need to be investigated by the Vatican too. That’s tongue in cheek, if you didn’t sense it.

      Try these for a proper analysis of Old Mother Hubbard.
      Who is Barbara Hubbard
      Exhibit a for explaining the LCWR Report
      Why Liberal Nuns are Dying Off

      Whatever sisters Donna Quinn, Margaret Farley, or Jeanine Gramick may have said or done is irrelevant to the LCWR because none of them were ever LCWR leaders.

      Talk about burying your head in the sand. Of course they are relevant. They are all lost in the same swamp. They are all part of the bigger picture connected to the problems of the LCWR. They are all stuck in heresy-land, and the netherworld of spiritual blindness. The Vatican has sent in some rescue-squads, but I think much of it is lost and can’t be salvaged. If they were Catholic, they’d have a proper sense of humility and obedience, and would really be trying to wake up. I really feel sorry for many of them. They have been swindled by the devil.

      Marty and Fr Z need to get their facts straight and stop spreading hate and lies about the LCWR.

      Hate and lies? Please substantiate that most unfair accusation against Mr Rethul. Where are the hate and lies?

      Archbishop Peter Sartain, the man assigned to work with the LCWR, was positively glowing in his endorsement of the LCWR whom he PRAISED after their recent conference:

      He’s being diplomatic, focusing on what little good does remain, in order to be able to be effective in drawing them back to the true Faith. He’s being gentle so as not to close down openness.

      That’s his job, as delegate to them from the Pope. But others can talk frankly about exactly what has been going on.

      Go the sisters !

      You should ask your Bishop if he’ll allow you to go and be a Deacon for them. They might burn you at the stake though.

      God Bless

      Are you sure you mean that?

      Mr Banter,

      Twaddle ! Yes, it is isn’t it. What a great word.

      Val.

    10. Valerie August 14, 2012 at 10:30 pm

      What would we do without balance and truth!
      thank you Chris

      Thanks for seeing the lighter side of things Mrs Helen. I never picked you for a comedian. Things are changing…

      Val.

    11. banter August 14, 2012 at 10:35 pm

      And another thing about those nuns. Where are their habits? You see if we think about this properly it’s all incapsulated in that one gesture. Ditch the habit, ditch the humility.

      Perhaps if the Vatican was to insist on that one change and nothing else it would effect a reconciliation with church teaching and a re-establishment of law and order.

      That’s my parting shot for this evening…

    12. muerk August 14, 2012 at 10:48 pm

      Please, please, please can we NOT seriously compare Teilhard de Chardin to Barbara Marx Hubbard because it hurts my brain.

    13. Chris Sullivan August 15, 2012 at 7:14 am

      Here’s a VERY inspiring account of the life of Franciscan sister Pat Farrell, the outgoing LCWR leader. She risked her life many times in the service of the gospel and of the poor, under the military dictatorship in Chile and death squads in El Salvador:

      http://www.religionnews.com/faith/leaders-and-institutions/Vatican-showdown-the-latest-chapter-in-Sister-Pat-Farrells-dramatic-life

      I don’t know that any of the ultaconservative bishops like Cdl Burke, who seem quick to jump on the sisters for their own political agenda, have ever risked their own lives in the service of the gospel and of the poor as many of the good LCWR sisters have.

      God Bless

    14. Chris Sullivan August 15, 2012 at 7:43 am

      Here’s another courageous nun arrested 40 or 50 times for acts of civil disobedience to The Empire and once served six months in prison

      http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/11/science/behind-nuclear-breach-a-nuns-bold-fervor.html?_r=1

      God Bless her !

    15. Valerie August 15, 2012 at 8:44 am

      Deacon Sullivan,

      Regarding your posts #13 and #14: If you can’t distinguish between their doctrinal problems (including its bad fruits) and some of their charity work, then there’s no point. You don’t know how to discuss properly. When you find a point that you can’t reply to, you just shift the focus to another thing. That is called “raising a red herring”. You do it all the time.

      We would respect you more, if you could actually admit the truth and say, “Yep, those Sisters have some doctrinal problems, and need a bit of help to be sorted out.”

      But some of this “charity” work is just activism: political activism. Trying to stop nuclear stuff. Is it really central to their religious mission? If it is so important, why isn’t the Church calling many people to protest like this? They are lost, many of these sisters, and these wierdo activist protests are a huge sign of this spiritual confusion; exactly like Fr Peter Murnane breaking into Waihopai Base to stick a spear into a balloon. What a sad little man.

      Cardinal Burke is a brilliant man and a holy priest. To accuse him of operating out of a political agenda makes you look silly.

      Val.

    16. bamac August 15, 2012 at 1:50 pm

      Val,

      Well put.

      Thought that this was worth a read :-

      http://www.ad2000.com.au/articles/2012/jun2012p7_3793.html

      We keep being given statistics re how many nuns are right behind what the leadership of LCWR puts out in its statements but I wonder just how many do in their heart of hearts.

      Shalom

    17. bamac August 15, 2012 at 2:05 pm

      Admin,

      This is slightly off topic but thought that a bit of good news might be appreciated … there is so much concern re LCWR and Rome and all that re ” Vatileaks”

      http://www.ad2000.com.au/articles/2012/apr2012p7_3751.html

      PLease God the same will happen here with continued seminary growth,

      Shalom

    18. Helens Bay August 15, 2012 at 3:19 pm

      Val
      The Good Sisters of LCWR are such an easy target but they have the support of the majority of fellow Sisters worldwide including NZ fully behind them.
      I have been surprised but gladdened by the approach of AB Sartain and pray that he has the courage to participate in truth.
      It never ceases to amaze me all the furore re the LCWR on BF yet the deathly silence re the ongoing saga of Sexual Abuse within the Church.
      Last month in Pennsylvania MgrLynn was sentenced to 6 yrs in jail for endangering children as a former top aide to Cardinals Rigali and Bevilacqua presented overwhelmining and undisputed evidence of a decades’ old massive top-down cover-up of a priest pedophile paradise through as late as last year.
      All indications are that this was typical of US dioceses and known to exist by the Vatican, which had longstanding close ties under John Paul II and Benedict XVI to Philly Cardinals.
      Yet not a word from Rigali, Dolan, Levada, Ratzinger, or any other hierarch about Lynn’s conviction.
      Yesterday according to The Sydney Morning Herald, an investigation by New South Wales police has named Fr. Brian Lucas, general secretary of the Australian Catholic Bishops Conference, as a person of interest in relation to an alleged concealment of the actions of pedophile priest Denis McAlinden.

      Other persons of interest are Archbishop Philip Wilson of Adelaide and retired Bishop Michael Malone of Maitland-Newcastle.
      Very sad and not something that is going to go away as many of the deniers on BF have tried to sweep under the carpet in the past.
      Maybe Marty could use his investigative skills on these issues sometime!

    19. bamac August 15, 2012 at 3:36 pm

      Helens Bay,

      One question …. where do you get your information re they have the support of the majority of fellow sisters world wide including NZ FULLY behind them ?

      The rest of your comment I will ignore for it has been done and done again on BF as you know. and will be ignored by others I hope too.

      Shalom

    20. Helens Bay August 15, 2012 at 3:58 pm

      Bamac
      Do as I do,read newspapers,use the INTERNET its all very simple!
      As the No 1 denier regarding sexual abuse i`m not surprised at the rest of your comments and your credibility regarding issues within the Church is zilch.

    21. bamac August 15, 2012 at 4:28 pm

      Helens Bay,

      I do read newspapers too, and the internet ( not that I always believe everything I read there!)

      You say that you have been amazed by all the furore re LCWR on BF personally I am saddened ,but not surprised, that you don’t see the importance of their disloyalty to Holy Mother Church,or their dissenting beliefs which can, and do, cause spiritual damage amongst their followers.
      There is no way I deny sexual abuse, be it in church, schools, forces or anywhere… I do not intend going off topic to discus it here though .

      Shalom

    22. Valerie August 15, 2012 at 4:36 pm

      Mrs Helen,

      Wow. That was a hum dinger! #18. That’s a red herring if I ever saw one.

      As the No 1 denier regarding sexual abuse i`m not surprised at the rest of your comments and your credibility regarding issues within the Church is zilch.

      I think you should apologize to Mrs Mac for your low shot. No.1 denier? Maybe you should go and have a lie down and have some warm milk.

      Mrs Mac, I’m sorry that you have to put up with such horrible comments. You are wonderful here at BeingFrank.

      This is something that I notice with some people:
      REALIST VIEW : There is a problem with catechesis in the Church
      LIBERAL RESPONSE: Sexual abuse crisis!
      REALIST VIEW : There is a problem with young people departing the Church
      LIBERAL RESPONSE: Sexual abuse crisis!
      REALIST VIEW : There is a problem with Catholic schooling
      LIBERAL RESPONSE: Sexual abuse crisis!
      REALIST VIEW : There is a problem with the LCWR
      LIBERAL RESPONSE: Sexual abuse crisis!
      REALIST VIEW : There is a problem with New Age among Sisters
      LIBERAL RESPONSE: Sexual abuse crisis!
      REALIST VIEW : There is a problem with liturgical abuse
      LIBERAL RESPONSE: Sexual abuse crisis!
      REALIST VIEW : There is a problem with pro-contraception people in the Church
      LIBERAL RESPONSE: Sexual abuse crisis!
      REALIST VIEW : There is a problem with dissent in the Church
      LIBERAL RESPONSE: Sexual abuse crisis!
      REALIST VIEW : There is a problem with etc etc etc
      LIBERAL RESPONSE: Sexual abuse crisis!

      At some stage, instead of replying with the sexual abuse crisis, you need to address the real problems as they are in front of you apart from the abuse crisis

      Val.

    23. bamac August 15, 2012 at 4:51 pm

      Val,

      Mrs Mac thanks you for all you said in #22 …must be my Ausie thick skin but criticism like HB’s run off me like proverbial water off a ducks back. …

      Shalom

    24. Helens Bay August 15, 2012 at 5:16 pm

      Val
      The sexual abuse crisis is the No1 problem within our Church and cannot be denied.
      As for the attack on the LCWR just a red herring by the Vatican to deflect the ongoing corruption as indicated by Vati leaks and other news releases.
      Being Frank has seldom confronted this problem and unfortunately Bamac needs to be told the truth.
      Its the ELEPHANT in the room which the Church refuses to acknowledge and it won`t go away!!

    25. bamac August 15, 2012 at 5:26 pm

      Val,

      How does that saying go ..something about none so blind as they who do not see…? you are so right in all those statements of yours in #22…. Helens Bay has just proves it me thinks.

    26. Abenader August 15, 2012 at 5:46 pm

      Nana HB
      The church in the ‘western’ world is in a virtual state of apostasy and you suggest that the sex abuse crisis is the No. 1 problem. Wow, just Wow!!

    27. bamac August 15, 2012 at 7:09 pm

      Helens Bay,

      Back on topic … where will I find the quotes showing the veracity of your statement re LCWR having the support of the majority of fellow sisters world wide even here in NZ …are you maybe quoting from NCR?

      Being Frank has seldom confronted this problem me thinks that your memory must be slippig! can anyone else remember clerical sex abuse being the topic of conversation on BF?

      Abenader, You are right about wide spread apostasy … as D.V reminded us, we must indeed pray for our church.

    28. Helens Bay August 15, 2012 at 7:35 pm

      Bamac,
      Newspapers, from South Africa,Ireland,Germany,and Australia to mention a few.
      What is NCR?
      You are right we do need to pray for the Church if we are to believe the Butler,what do you reckon?

    29. Valerie August 15, 2012 at 8:47 pm

      can anyone else remember clerical sex abuse being the topic of conversation on BF?

      Mrs Mac, after scrolling back a bit, try this one from Mr Rethul
      http://www.beingfrank.co.nz/corrupt-bishops

      Val.

    30. Helens Bay August 15, 2012 at 8:51 pm

      Abenader
      And the 5 most prominent reasons for this Apostacy?
      NO1 Sexual Abuse
      No2 Treatment of Homosexuals by the Church
      No 3 Women not treated as equals
      No 4 Married priests
      No 5 Lack of communication(Pray,Pay,&Obey policy)

    31. Valerie August 15, 2012 at 9:04 pm

      The Good Sisters of LCWR are such an easy target but they have the support of the majority of fellow Sisters worldwide including NZ fully behind them.

      Mrs Helen,

      I agree with Mrs Mac, how do you know that all sisters support them?

      Anyway, it doesn’t matter if they have the support of their fellow sisters. Lots of communist block countries had the support of their comrade communist nations during the Cold War, but that doesn’t make them right, or in the truth. Solidarity doesn’t not mean that everybody is healthy and well. One can be sick with other sick people. One can be in error with others who are in error, but that does not mean they are in truth. There is no proper unity without the truth. These poor sisters, who I genuinely feel for, are in trouble. Let us pray for them.

      I don’t think that they are easy targets. They have made it so obvious they that do not really hold the Catholic Faith. In that sense, they are the authors of their own publicly known position, which is easy to know, from what they have said and do.

      Val.

    32. Dei Verbum August 15, 2012 at 10:01 pm

      HB

      NO1 Sexual Abuse
      No2 Treatment of Homosexuals by the Church
      No 3 Women not treated as equals
      No 4 Married priests
      No 5 Lack of communication(Pray,Pay,&Obey policy)

      These issues are the fruits of apostacy not the cause.

      If you want to see the real cause of these issues then look in the mirror, I don’t mean that in a personal sense but rather blame the Bishops as we all share the blame for sexual abuse from (mostly) homosexuals who were allowed free reign, woman not given formation in authentic femininity, poor appreciation of the theology behind the male and celibate priesthood, and a lack of prayer and obedience to Truth.

      One telling omission in all your posts is a lack of mention of God, you (and the LCWR make the same mistake)are so focused on forming God in your own image that you (and they) have lost the faith in the one true God. If you have lost your way do not react by destroying what is left of the Church but get busy and build it up.

      Take some of your own advice and Pray (for grace),pay (by offering up suffering),and obey (in faith).

      Pray for the Church!

    33. Teresina August 15, 2012 at 10:24 pm

      This is an excellent post by Marty Rethul. It has taken me a fair while to get through it, as I have watched the various videos and associated links – as Marty says:
      “Nuns Gone Wild: A Trip Down Memory Lane”(which is on Fr Z’s blog) is a must read.

      I would find it all very depressing if it weren’t for the fact that the majority of these “nuns” are on the way out and their heretical beliefs, hopefully, will die out with them and not be passed on to future generations of nuns. Certainly, it is the traditional orders that are getting the vocations and not the “Nuns gone wild” lot.

      Sisters in Crisis: The Tragic Unravelling of Women’s Religious Communities – the author, Ann Carey, says on the EWTN video (link in Marty’s post) that her book will be available later this year, updated with new material on the LCWR.

      And of course despite the obvious, that these women are completely out-of-step with the Church’s teachings, we still have the likes of Chris Sullivan and Helens Bay defending them.

      Chris Sullivan says:

      “Marty’s characterisation of the LCWR sisters as “not Catholic” is untrue, uncharitable and contrary to Catholic doctrine (Catholicity is determined by baptism, not what one happens to think about this or that matter of doctrine; which speaks to degree of communion not whether or not one is Catholic).”

      That is not correct – certainly the term “Catholic” embraces only those who believe in what the Catholic Church teaches and who accept the dogmas of the Church, as St Augustine says (Chapter 4.—Proofs of the Catholic Faith):

      “Saint Augustine of Hippo (354–430) also used the term “Catholic” to distinguish the “true” church from heretical groups:
      In the Catholic Church, there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosom. The consent of peoples and nations keeps me in the Church; so does her authority, inaugurated by miracles, nourished by hope, enlarged by love, established by age. The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection, gave it in charge to feed His sheep (Jn 21:15–19), down to the present episcopate.
      And so, lastly, does the very name of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house.
      Such then in number and importance are the precious ties belonging to the Christian name which keep a believer in the Catholic Church, as it is right they should … With you, where there is none of these things to attract or keep me… No one shall move me from the faith which binds my mind with ties so many and so strong to the Christian religion… For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church. —St. Augustine (354–430): Against the Epistle of Manichaeus called Fundamental, chapter 4: Proofs of the Catholic Faith.”
      — St. Augustine (354–430): Against the Epistle of Manichaeus called Fundamental, chapter 4: Proofs of the Catholic Faith”

      When you have people like Chris Sullivan and Helens Bay thinking that people can be called “Catholic” and yet embrace any heresy they like then it’s time for a new Council of Trent – time to sort the wheat from the chaff …

      For my part I cling to the Faith of Our Fathers, Holy Faith – as St Augustine puts it so succinctly: “No one shall move me from the faith which binds my mind with ties so many and so strong to the Christian religion”.

    34. bamac August 15, 2012 at 10:48 pm

      Another link that i feel is worth including and DV, God is very much part of what is expressed in it.

      http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/otc.cfm?id=994

      Shalom

    35. banter August 15, 2012 at 11:22 pm

      Hello Helens Bay

      I was wondering if you could tell us what you admire so much about the work of the sisters associated with the LCWR?

    36. Chris Sullivan August 16, 2012 at 7:33 am

      Helen is correct; the sex abuse crisis has caused MUCH more damage and scandal in the Church than so called feminist nuns ever have. And the ultraconservative bishops behind the attacks on the LCWR are up to their necks in the sex abuse crisis.

      By the late 1990s, they [conservative bishops in the US, according to Mickens] began taking their complaints about the sisters to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF) in Rome. The CDF, under the then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, even issued a doctrinal warning against the organisation in 2001, though the last remnant of a more conciliar group of US bishops was able to stave off any direct Vatican intervention.

      The saga entered a new phase in 2005 when Cardinal Ratzinger was elected Pope. He quickly appointed the then Archbishop William Levada of San Francisco to his old post as CDF prefect. Significantly, the soon-to-be Cardinal Levada was also chairman of the doctrinal committee of the US Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB). According to sources in Rome and Washington, his successor at the conference’s doctrinal office –the then Bishop William Lori of Bridgeport, Connecticut – was the man who formally petitioned the CDF to launch the current doctrinal investigation of the LCWR. Cardinal Bernard Law, who was forced to resign as Archbishop of Boston in 2002 because of his perceived mishandling of the clerical sex-abuse crisis, was reportedly the person in Rome most forcefully supporting Bishop Lori’s proposal.

      Both Cardinal Law and Archbishop Lori (he was appointed to the prestigious see of Baltimore in March) have long supported women’s religious orders that have distanced themselves from the LCWR. Cardinal Law, 80, staffs his residence in Rome with the Mercy Sisters of Alma (Michigan) and Archbishop Lori, 61, helped set up several traditional communities of sisters during his tenure in Bridgeport (2001-12). All these communities, marked by their loyalty to the hierarchy, belong to the Conference of Major Superiors of Women Religious (CMSWR), which broke away from the LCWR in 1992.

      Incidentally, Cardinal Law was a member of the Vatican’s Congregation for Religious when it launched its own visitation – separate from the CDF investigation – of women’s communities in the US. According to news reports, that project was at least partially funded by the Knights of Columbus, a wealthy fraternal order of Catholic men for whom Archbishop Lori has been supreme chaplain since 2005. Under the leadership of an influential Washington lawyer and former Reagan White House official, Carl Anderson, the knights have increasingly backed conservative causes and routinely make sizeable donations to the Holy See. Mr Anderson is a member or consultor of several Vatican offices, and one of the five-man board of directors for the so-called Vatican Bank. His close association with the Vatican and Archbishop Lori, and the archbishop’s own determination to bring the LCWR into line, should not be underestimated.

      After appointing Bishop Leonard Blair of Toledo (Ohio) to conduct the initial phase of the controversial investigation of the Leadership Conference, the CDF has now asked Archbishop J. Peter Sartain of Seattle to lead phase two. He heads a three-man team (which includes Blair) to reform the organization or, in the CDF’s sanitised words, “to implement a process of review and conformity to the teachings and discipline of the Church”

      http://www.americamagazine.org/blog/entry.cfm?entry_id=5101

      Readers can go to http://www.bishop-accountability.org and enter in the names of Cdl Law, Bp Burke, Bp Blair, Bp Levada and Bp Ratzinger into their search engine and see all the gory documentation for themselves. It’s sickening.

      The conservative Bishops attacking the LCWR need to stop bullying the LCWR and start with a closer look at the damage their OWN ACTIONS have caused to the Church.

      On the Feast of the assumption, Our Lady’s Magnificat is as radical a feminist and anti-imperial statement of where God stands in all this as one will find anywhere. I salute the good sisters of the LCWR who are courageously following Our Lady. The vile, untrue, and cowardly attacks on them here are despicable and completely against the Gospel.

      God Bless

    37. banter August 16, 2012 at 7:50 am

      Yes but Chris. All this is saying to me is that the church has two problems then: the sexual abuse scandal and the doctrinal error of the LCWR nuns. Both need to be sorted surely.

      There is no smoke without fire. There must be something rum about the LCWR otherwise why the furore. If the nuns can prove their compliance with church teaching & doctrine they’ll be fine. I don’t think it will help if they excuse themselves or others excuse them on the basis of some other problem within the church. Likewise. The bishops and priests involved in the sexual abuse scandals will also need to be held to account. It’s simple really. Let’s sort it out properly now and then move on.

    38. Chris Sullivan August 16, 2012 at 8:28 am

      banter,

      I have yet to see ANY evidence that there actually are any doctrinal problems with the LCWR. Lots of hot air and wild claims, yes. But nothing in way of actual evidence that stands up to even the most cursory investigation. And, yes, I’ve read all the so called “evidence” and investigated it. This is all Church politics.

      God Bless

    39. Dei Verbum August 16, 2012 at 8:37 am

      Deacon Christopher;

      you say

      On the Feast of the assumption, Our Lady’s Magnificat is as radical a feminist and anti-imperial statement of where God stands in all this as one will find anywhere. I salute the good sisters of the LCWR who are courageously following Our Lady. The vile, untrue, and cowardly attacks on them here are despicable and completely against the Gospel

      http://www.wf-f.org/Magnifi.html

      The Catechism of the Catholic Church describes the Magnificat as “the song both of the Mother of God and of the Church” [CCC 2619], and explains this prayer’s significance:

      Mary’s prayer is revealed to us at the dawning of the fullness of time. Before the Incarnation of the Son of God, and before the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, her prayer cooperates in a unique way with the Father’s plan of loving kindness: at the Annunciation, for Christ’s conception; at Pentecost, for the formation of the Church, His Body. In the faith of His humble handmaid, the Gift of God found the acceptance He had awaited from the beginning of time. She whom the Almighty made “full of grace” responds by offering her whole being: “Behold I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be [done] to me according to Thy word”. “Fiat”: this is Christian prayer: to be wholly Gods’ because He is wholly ours. [CCC 2617]

      Our lady was obedient to God and she did not push her own views but cooperated with Gods plan.

      These ‘sisters’ do not speak for the Church but have their own agenda and it is based on new age claptrap and radical feminism opposed to God and his Church’s teachings

      Shame on you Deacon Christopher for endorsing these scandalous ‘sisters’ in the way you do. We should get more balance from an ordained cleric.

      Pray for the Church!

    40. Chris Sullivan August 16, 2012 at 8:47 am

      Dei,

      The LCWR are entirely Catholic.

      This is from the address of outgoing LCWR leader Franciscan Sr. Pat Farrell. Wonderful stuff! Fully in accord with Our Lady’s Magnificat.

      1. Contemplation: “How else can we go forward except from a place of deep prayer?” asked Farrell. “We have a lifetime of being lured into union with divine mystery…it’s the surest way into the darkness of God’s leading.”

      2. A “prophetic voice:” “Our rootedness in God needs to be deep enough and our read on reality clear enough for us to be a voice of consciousness,” said Farrell.

      3. Though “solidarity with the marginalized:” “We cannot live prophetically without proximity to those who are vulnerable and marginalized,” said Farrell.

      “This is where we belong,” she continued, pausing to hold back tears. “This is who we are as women religious. But also, the vantage point of marginalized people is a privileged place of encounter with God, whose preference is always for the outcast.”

      4. Community: “Religious have navigated many shifts over the years because we’ve done it together,” said Farrell.

      “We have effectively moved from a hierarchy structured lifestyle in our congregations to a more horizontal model,” she continued. “Sometimes I think we forget how amazing that is.”

      5. Nonviolence: Citing the example of Jesus, who “defined no one as an enemy and loved those who persecuted him,” Farrell said that while women religious cannot “take on the passivity of the victim,” they must be able to accept suffering, “rather than passing it on.”

      “We can absorb a certain degree of negativity without drama or fanfare, choosing not to escalate or lash out in return,” said Farrell. “My hope is that some measure of violence can stop with us.”

      6. ”Living in joyful hope:” Joyful hope, said Farrell, is “the hallmark of genuine discipleship.”

      “Hope makes us attentive to the signs of the inbreaking reign of God,” she continued.

      You can read her whole adress here:

      http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/lcwr-presidents-six-tools-answering-vatican

      Here’s the LCWR NETWORK sisters speaking out for the poor, together with the US Catholic Bishops who opposed Paul Ryan’s vicious budget attacks on the poor:

      http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/nuns-bus-will-ride-again-after-ryan-selection

      Magnificent witness to the Gospel !

      Meanwhile 500 of the faithful marched to St. James Cathedral, the episcopal seat of Abp Sartain, to voice their support for the LCWR:

      http://www.seattlepi.com/local/connelly/article/Support-the-Sisters-Big-march-on-St-James-3782906.php#ixzz23R6wWXy2

      Some wonderful photos!

      Go the sisters !

      God Bless

    41. Abenader August 16, 2012 at 9:35 am

      Chris
      For honesty’s sake, why did you become a deacon?

    42. Dei Verbum August 16, 2012 at 10:36 am

      Deacon Christopher;

      The LCWR are entirely Catholic.

      good grief!

      on that basis Hitler and Stalin were (and are) entirely Catholic as well!

      amd Satan is still a paid up member of the heavenly host?

      so why did Jesus drive the money lenders out of the temple? They were after all entirely Jewish!

      Pray for the Church!

    43. Valerie August 16, 2012 at 11:36 am

      I have yet to see ANY evidence that there actually are any doctrinal problems with the LCWR. Lots of hot air and wild claims, yes. But nothing in way of actual evidence that stands up to even the most cursory investigation. And, yes, I’ve read all the so called “evidence” and investigated it. This is all Church politics.

      Deacon Sullivan,

      I didn’t realize that you had been appointed by the Pope to do the investigation and make the judgment.

      The Pope called for this investigation, and called for this reform.

      What you are really saying is this: “I know better than the Pope. I’m smarter than the Pope. The Pope is acting out of politics, and he is therefore biased, prejudiced, and ignorant.”

      The hubris is breathtaking!

      Mrs Mac, I read that commentary from Catholic Culture. It was excellent. Here are some paragraphs that I liked.

      The LCWR has just held a meeting on how to respond to the Vatican intervention, and has released a statement noting its intention to engage in dialogue but without compromise. What the statement says, in effect, is that the LCWR intends to remain cordial while blowing the Vatican off.

      These were insightful.

      “At the meeting took place, participants were reminded of the thousands of people…who have communicated with the LCWR…, urging that the response be one that helps to reconcile the differences that exist within the Catholic Church and creates spaces for honest and open conversation on the critical moral and ethical questions that face the global community.”

      [This suggests that the Church does not currently have ‘space’ for honest and open conversation on critical moral and ethical questions, and that it is precisely this lack which is the real problem.]

      “While acknowledging their deep disappointment with the CDF report, the members proclaimed their intention to use this opportunity to explain to church leaders LCWR’s mission, values, and operating principles.”

      [This suggests again that the fault is all on Rome’s side (one marvels at the small “c” in “church”), and that the LCWR is not interested in changing what may be wrong with its own mission, values and operating principles—which are supposed to be part of the mission of the Church. This also sets at naught the entire detailed Apostolic Visitation the Vatican has already completed.]

      “[The LCWR members’] expectation is that open and honest dialogue may lead not only to increasing understanding between the church leadership and women religious, but also to creating more possibilities for laity and, particularly for women, to have a voice in the church.”

      [So the LCWR is intent on using the talks to further its own agenda concerning power in the Church, as if it speaks now not only for all women religious but the laity as well. Yet much of the harshest criticism of the LCWR has come from the many women’s religious orders who refuse to participate in it, and from lay persons who are continually scandalized by the LCWR’s disregard of Catholic doctrine and fruity para-liturgies.]

      “The officers will proceed with these discussions as long as possible, but will reconsider if LCWR is forced to compromise the integrity of its mission.”

      [Once again, one asks the crucial question about Catholic mission and its necessary foundation in the mission of the Church as directed by the pope and bishops.]

      “The members…urged the officers not to allow the work with CDF to absorb the time, energy, and resources of the conference nor to let it distract the conference from the work its mission requires.”

      [Don’t let the Vatican distract you! The hubris is breathtaking.]

      Yes, don’t let the Holy Father distract you from doing what you prefer.

      You can’t make this stuff up. It’s pure gold.

      Val.

    44. Helens Bay August 16, 2012 at 11:48 am

      Banter
      This little piece from Tom Fox says it all about LCWR.
      An episcopal technique I have come to notice in recent months involves placing heaps of praise at the feet of our women religious congregations while blasting the Leadership Conference of Women Religious for having led them astray by “radical feminist” thought.
      This “good sisters,” “bad LCWR,” back flip deserves some attention.
      The bit of dualism first showed up in the April 18th doctrinal assessment out of the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith, which read in part that the Holy See:
      acknowledges with gratitude the great contribution of women Religious to the Church in the United States as seen particularly in the many schools, hospitals, and institutions of support for the poor … while recognizing that this doctrinal Assessment concerns a particular conference of major superiors and therefore does not intend to offer judgment on the faith and life of Women Religious in the member Congregations, which belong to that conference.
      Since the publication of that statement I’ve noticed those bishops who have spoken out against LCWR are always effusive in their praise for the “good sisters.” It has been noticeable enough to make one wonder if the phenomenon is a defensive ploy or part of some unstated divide and conquer strategy.
      After some further thought I began to think it represents something less sinister, but far more troubling.
      But first, just a little background: LCWR is quite clearly an outgrowth and an expression of the sisters’ congregations throughout the United States. Each LCWR member, nearly 1500 in all, has been elected from within her congregation to represent its thoughts, interests, aspirations and concerns.
      LCWR is as bottom up as the Catholic hierarchy is top down. It is, in fact, a different model of Catholic organization, the most public and democratic model in the U.S. church today. And thanks to the Vatican’s doctrinal assessment, this organization, with its alternative model, is in the spotlight has never before. I might add this model is far more compatible, organizationally speaking, with the American way of life, with our own democratic traditions.
      LCWR, then, indeed represents the collective thinking of some 80 percent of the women religious congregations of America. In other words, LCWR represents the minds of women religious as best they can be harnessed and represented by any one religious organization.
      If the congregations, through their works of mercy, represent the body of service; LCWR represents the mind of service.
      This noted episcopal dualism – good women, bad leadership – intentional or not, separates the way the women act from the way they think, as if this were possible.
      It’s another way of saying, “We like what you do, but we don’t want to hear the way you think.”
      “We’ll take your bodies, but not your minds.”
      There once was a time, in church history not long ago, when the women of our church, including our women religious, were not afforded the opportunities to go into higher education. This changed in the 20th century. Women went out and got educated. They even began to study theology – and now we are profiting from the fruits of the first full generation of female Catholic theologians. These women are reflecting on all sorts of things, including injustices outside and within our church.
      This represents, of course, a major new development in the course of human history and theology. It’s changing everything.
      The female corpus, as men who have lived with or worked with women have come to understand quite clearly, is capable of acts and thoughts. Those who don’t “get it” soon will or they will be removed from the room. Believe me it will happen.
      And for the record, this note is not a lead up to the hot topic of women’s ordination. LCWR’s vision is larger. It involves treating each person, male or female, with equal respect and dignity and valuing each person’s contributions upon an equal and inclusive playing field. It involves finding new ways for lost credibility within our church to be restored. It involves finding ways to reach out to the young by witnessing authentically to the Word.
      All this is predicated on taking thoughtful women seriously. It means recognizing LCWR and the U.S. women religious congregations are one in mind and spirit.
      If our bishops don’t get this there will be no way to bridge the chasm between the clerical men and religious women, and our church will suffer hugely as a result.
      Brothers, this is the 21st century. Enter it. For the sake of the teachings of Jesus Christ.
      [Tom Fox

    45. Dei Verbum August 16, 2012 at 12:10 pm

      HB
      LCWR are only one organisation and they represent a dying breed (literally). The same can be said for some NZ orders who have lost their way.

      The only orders flourishing (and most of these are outside the LCWR)with young novices, are those with clear missions in step with the Chuch and not seeking to undermine it.

      “liberalism has no young Catholic progeny” Cardinal Pell 2011
      http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=9966

      Pray for the Church!

    46. Chris Sullivan August 16, 2012 at 12:29 pm

      Actually, there are just as many vocations to LCWR orders as to the more traditional orders.

      http://www.cathnewsusa.com/2012/08/lcwr-orders-receiving-%E2%80%9Calmost-equal%E2%80%9D-numbers-of-vocations-as-cmswr-orders/

      The LCWR certainly are in step with the Church. It is not they who are attacking other groups in the Church with venom, hatred, and lies.

      “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.”

      Amen.

      God Bless

    47. bamac August 16, 2012 at 12:29 pm

      Thank you HB for that long quote!

      I wondered who Tom Fox was so looked him up in Google and guess what , he is a big part of National Catholic Reporter …NCR , the one Chris is fond of quoting from … Google showed me his credentials :-

      Thomas C. Fox is NCR publisher. His e-mail address is tfox@ncronline.org

      No surprise then that he feels the way he does! He has written quite a bit on LCWR hasn’t he Helen.

      Mrs Mac

    48. Chris Sullivan August 16, 2012 at 12:59 pm

      The LCWR represent 80% of the U.S. female religious sisters. They are the mainstream of those sisters who have left everything to follow Jesus. The more traditional religious orders comprise only about 20% of U.S. religious sisters.

      All the great LCWR sisters, whom some here seem to love to hate, also started out in very traditional orders. As they grew in faith, hope, and love, they grew up to become the wonderful witnesses to the Gospel they are today.

      God Bless

    49. Opthomistic August 16, 2012 at 1:00 pm

      Thanks for that link Chris. Unfortunately the implication you give to that data does capture the criticism that LCWR orders are shrinking while “more traditional” are growing at a much faster rate.

      The data shows that LCWR and CMSWR had almost equal numbers of women entering:
      1. candidates/postulants
      2. novices
      3. sisters in temporary vows/commitments

      But the rate is important. CMSWR represents about 100 communities. LCWR claims representatives from more than 1500 communities. Surely the number of vocations ought to be much higher for the LCWR than the CMSWR, instead of equivalent gross numbers! More than half of those LCWR congregations received zero new vocations, while on average the CMSWR ones had 4 new vocations per congregation. This means that the remaining LCWR communities that did get a vocation did so at a rate of under 0.5 new vocations per community.

      Or you could look at the number of respondents. Four times as many survey respondents from LCWR communities as from CMSWR ones. Surely the survey should find at least 4 times as many vocations in the LCWR as in the CMSWR if the claim that “there are just as many vocations to LCWR orders as to the more traditional orders.” is to have any argumentative force?

      Finally, this survey excludes women in monastic orders, of which the proportion hugely favours traditional orders compared to LCWR ones. It also ignores new religious communities, which again, have a huge bias towards being traditional.

    50. bamac August 16, 2012 at 1:01 pm

      Chris,

      Where do you see hatred in any of the comments? …quotes please. Concern expressed here is true concern for the direction that the LCWR is taking . What makes you think that you know better than the Holy Father ?

      Apparently the leadership has done away with the meaning of the vow of obedience … their reading of it seems to be obedience to their own ideas and not to Holy Mother Church.

      The many nuns that I have known, worked and lived with over the years all entered religious life because they not only loved God so much and wanted to grow even closer to Him but wanted to bring the love of God to others, for the salvation of souls . They offered their lives, their sufferings , their work and their joys to God as prayer…. they lived their lives with a great love of our Eucharistic Lord and in obedience to Him through the Holy Father who they knew to be Christ’s vicar on earth. DV is right , where do we see them mention love of God.

      We must indeed pray for our Church

      Shalom

    51. Abenader August 16, 2012 at 1:13 pm

      Chris, again, why did you become a deacon? Honestly? Whom do you serve?

      Opthomostic, thanks for the above post. “EGREREGIOUS TWADDLE” (no less) also does a bit of dissecting here:

      All is not lost though, far from it.

      Beautiful

    52. Chris Sullivan August 16, 2012 at 1:21 pm

      Opthomistic,

      Four times as many survey respondents from LCWR communities as from CMSWR ones.

      The LCWR has 4 times as many sisters as the CMSWR, so one expects 4 times as many respondants !

      The figures include Monastic orders but a not a breakdown by LCWR/CMSWR:

      One of the most striking findings regarding new entrants is that almost equal numbers of women have been attracted to institutes in both conferences of women religious in the U.S. in recent years. As of 2009, L.C.W.R. institutes reported 73 candidates/postulants, 117 novices and 317 sisters in temporary vows/commitment. C.M.S.W.R. institutes reported 73 candidates/postulants, 158 novices and 304 sisters in temporary vows/commitment. (There are 150 nuns in formation in U.S. monasteries.)”

      The point is that half of all those entering vocations to life as religious SISTERS are choosing LCWR orders.

      In traditional times, most young people will be traditional, but they won’t necessarily remain traditional as they mature in faith, as is evident from the various personal histories of the good sisters now leading LCWR orders, who were all once very traditional in their youth. But then they grew up !

      I know lots of young men in formation. Very few are traditional/conservative.

      The idea that only traditional/conservative groups are getting vocations is simply wrong.

      God Bless

    53. Chris Sullivan August 16, 2012 at 1:31 pm

      bamac,

      As you can read in The Tablet article I linking to above, the moves against the LCWR are not coming from the Holy Father, but from a very conservative clique of U.S. Bishops. His butler, and others, have revealed some of the corruption and evil in the Vatican which surrounds the Holy Father in Rome.

      The hate is obvious in some of the comments above.

      Abenader (didn’t he kill Christ?),

      God asked me to become a Deacon. Your insinuation is offensive and uncharitable.

      FWIW Egarious Twaddle has subsequently revised her assessment, realising that she was in error and most uncharitable towards Fr Martin. Hers is an example that you and some others on this thread would do well to follow. Your retraction and apology is invited…

      God Bless

    54. Chris Sullivan August 16, 2012 at 1:59 pm

      Surely the number of vocations ought to be much higher for the LCWR than the CMSWR, instead of equivalent gross numbers!

      Why ?

      Just because Toyota make more models of car than Holden, why would one expect more people to buy Toyota’s ? Just because LCWR have more member orders, why would one expect them to have more vocations ?

      Jesus and the early Church didn’t exactly find huge numbers of vocations to really follow the gospel. Why should the LCWR ? There never are many of us prepared to leave everything to follow Christ. Especially when it’s hard and people hate us for it.

      If you are a young Catholic of a traditional bent, why would you want to join a non traditional order ?

      If you were a young Catholic of a progressive bent, why would you want to join an order that some Catholics are jumping all over ? Why would you want to give your life to an institution not prepared to really take women’s voices on board ?

      The traditional orders are much better funded by wealthy benefactors (the Poor Clares of Alabama, originally sworn to absolute poverty by their founder st Clare, even own a world wide TV network!) and therefore more attractive to prospective entrants.

      The older orders will require the younger entrants to support the elders. That also isn’t going to be all that attractive.

      Vocations to religious orders were at an exceptional peak in the 1950′s due to an unusual combination of social factors which are now no longer in play. For example, religious life gave a freedom and educational possibilities then not open to many women – but that is no longer the case. In some ways that is a good thing because back then many vocations were not genuine callings.

      I think we should encourage and support all those discerning vocations to the Church, to whatever group they feel called to.

      All these attacks on the LCWR are not helping vocations.

      God Bless

    55. Valerie August 16, 2012 at 2:41 pm

      FWIW Egarious Twaddle has subsequently revised her assessment, realising that she was in error and most uncharitable towards Fr Martin. Hers is an example that you and some others on this thread would do well to follow. Your retraction and apology is invited…

      Deacon Sullivan,

      You’ve done it again. You’ve deliberately misquoted and misrepresented something you have read and then passed that off to us. The author of Egregious Twaddle apologized for her style and the way she spoke about Fr Martin. She did not retract the points she was making, nor did she say that her blog was inaccurate. She maintains the Fr Martin has twisted the stats and misrepresented the truth, precisely like you have done. She just recognized that she had been uncharitable in her words towards Fr Martin. You people have no integrity.

      Her points about vocations stand.

      YOUR retraction and apology is invited !

      There are no attacks on the LCWR here Deacon Sullivan. It’s just you who use those words, which is most uncharitable. You can point at a cow and say chicken, but it doesn’t make it a chicken.

      Tom Fox thinks that the sisters are the real thing

      Have a look for yourselves and see

      Have a listen to the words of the blessing. They talk about blessing “from their souls to her soul, from their …. to her … ” etc No mention of God blessing, or asking Him to bless. No mention of to the Father, through Christ, in the unity of the Holy Spirit etc

      It’s the blessing that they prayed over Old Mother Hubbard after her address to them.

      If these sisters were the “real thing” they’d look like sisters, talk like sisters, pray like sisters, etc

      But if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck … IT’S A DUCK! not a SWAN.

      Val.

    56. Opthomistic August 16, 2012 at 2:48 pm

      Chris, no retraction or apology is needed! What on earth would provoke you to ask for one? It’s just silly!
      The statistics I have shown you stand on their own merit.

      Egarious Twaddle was wrong about her personal attacks on Fr Martin, and also wrong about his position when confronted with the facts I outlines, she was not wrong about the statistics. In no way have I approved of, or defended her conduct in that manner.

      Egarious Twaddle thought Fr Martin resolutely refused to accept the statistical arguments she had made, while in reality he had accepted that his initial assessment of the data was incorrect and that the data, in Egarious Twaddle’s words “indeed does demonstrate a trend toward more traditional forma of religious life”

      Let’s think about this. Even assuming that the equal numbers of vocations to communities of each order remains, that monastic vocations don’t count and that new religious communities don’t count, over time the distribution of religious is going to go from LCWR:CMSWR 80:20 to 50:50 and the number of communities is going to go from 94:6 to 50:50. Given the LCWR have used their claim to greater representation of number of sisters and number of communities as proof of moral authority I doubt anyone in the LCWR is saying “phew! lucky we have the same number of vocations (if you exclude two of the most important growth areas of new vocations) as those traditional orders!”

    57. Chris Sullivan August 16, 2012 at 2:57 pm

      The LCWR is the real thing. And good on them for acknowledging, thanking, and blessing the workers ! What a wonderful example! I wonder if the Bishops do that when they meet ?

      One of their sisters, Sisters of Social Service Sister Vandegaer, has just won a pro life award from the USCCB:

      http://www.usccb.org/news/2012/12-137.cfm

      http://lcwr.org/links/organizations

      Go the sisters !

      And so much for the lies that LCWR does nothing against abortion.

      And, yes, Eqarious Twaddle (what an appropriate name!) did apologise:

      Yesterday, in posting on some problems with the way America magazine and Fr James Martin, SJ were interpreting statistics on women’s vocations to religious life, this upstart blogger violated her own comments policy, not to mention the bonds of charity.

      I imputed manipulative intent, rather than wishful misreading, to Fr Martin’s interpretation of the statistics as supporting his contention that progressive women’s communities (defined in the study as those affiliated with the LCWR) are attracting vocations in the same number as communities with a more traditional structure and lifestyle. And then I accused him of covering it up by deleting comments from and unfriending those who pointed out his misreading. I went on to an egregious misreading of my own, failing to catch that in linking to the findings of a National Religious Vocations Council study that showed a trend toward more traditional communities, Fr Martin was acknowledging a challenge to his own preconceptions.

      Publicly maligning the motives of someone I disagree with is bad enough, but I went further. With even less than a groatsworth of wit, but obviously dazzled by my own conceit, I took some very cheap shots at Fr Martin’s public persona. In doing so, I not only sinned myself but provided an occasion of sin to commenters who took the liberty of indulging in ad hominem character assassination, presuming gleefully that I was on their side. I have deleted those comments, and will not publish any new ones in that vein. I left up the comment that said, “You are a bit on the bulldog side. Where is your peace?”—that one will be my prayer of repentance today.

      http://www.patheos.com/blogs/egregioustwaddle/2012/08/mea-maxima-culpa-an-upstart-blogger-eats-crow.html

      God Bless

    58. Chris Sullivan August 16, 2012 at 3:09 pm

      Opthomistic,

      Where did I ask you to apologise ? It was Abenader !

      My point is that LCWR are getting vocations. The claim that only traditional orders are is wrong.

      Time will tell whether the more traditional orders ever get to 50:50. The mess in the Legion of Christi / Regnum Christi and certain other “traditional” orders suggests there are problems. So do the number of those leaving traditional orders very disillusioned by the dysfunctional community life and even abuses in some of them. (some of these women are personally known to me). As do those diocesan bishops who have seen fit to expel certain traditional orders/movements from their dioceses.

      As a father, I’d ask my daughter to think twice before joining some of the more “traditional” orders/movements.

      God Bless

    59. Opthomistic August 16, 2012 at 4:55 pm

      Yeah I don’t think people are seriously saying that LCWR are getting NO vocations whatsoever, at worst it is a hyberbolae for there has been a very drastic trend towards vocations into non-LCWR congregations. On the other hand, more than half of the LCWR congregations DID actually get NO vocations whatsoever, and its not a recent trend either.

      Yes those are all very sad things Chris, but they are happening to LCWR orders too. As a good father, sure warn your daughter against some of the more “traditional” orders/movements, but if it is to be motivated by rational reasons a warning against some “non-traditional” orders/movements would be ‘in order’ (buh boo tish!), otherwise it would be clearly just from an antipathy towards “traditional” things!

    60. JimmyG August 16, 2012 at 6:28 pm

      Chris,

      The LCWR is the real thing

      Real what though? real New-Agers? real Secular Humanists? real Pseudo-religious Social Workers? real “Women’s Services” promoters? real Obama sycophants? real Pagans?

      They are not real Catholic religious. That is why they have been investigated, it is why they are going to be reformed – one way or the other

      HB,

      LCWR is as bottom up as the Catholic hierarchy is top down. It is, in fact, a different model of Catholic organization, the most public and democratic model in the U.S. church today. And thanks to the Vatican’s doctrinal assessment, this organization, with its alternative model, is in the spotlight has never before. I might add this model is far more compatible, organizationally speaking, with the American way of life, with our own democratic traditions.

      Alternative model? The Catholic Hierarchy is not a model, not a human construct, not one way of doing things. The hierarchical reality in the Communion of the Church is established by Christ. Jesus chose bishops, ordained them, and gave them a special charism of teaching, sanctifying, and governing. When we are baptized, we are ordained into the order of the laity. You are in the hierarchy Helens Bay. You are part of the hierarchy of the Church by being a lay member. It is not a model but the way Jesus made it.

    61. JimmyG August 16, 2012 at 6:39 pm

      HB, maybe you should read Lumen Gentium from Vatican II.
      Have you ever read it? Try reading no’s 18-38.

    62. Marty Rethul August 16, 2012 at 6:47 pm

      Deacon Sullivan,

      regarding your astonishing post #55:

      If I owned four factories, with 80 workers, and those four factories were producing only as much product as one identical factory with 20 workers on the other side of town, I’d know that there was something wrong.

      A rather distasteful comparison, I know, but maybe it will help you.

    63. JimmyG August 16, 2012 at 7:19 pm

      In traditional times, most young people will be traditional, but they won’t necessarily remain traditional as they mature in faith, as is evident from the various personal histories of the good sisters now leading LCWR orders, who were all once very traditional in their youth. But then they grew up ! I know lots of young men in formation. Very few are traditional/conservative.

      Chris, this comment is sad bro. I think you are uninformed. You don’t know the reality. Most of the seminaries around the world that are full and growing are traditional orthodox ones.

      The seminary which is growing the fastest in Aussie is the Wagga-Wagga one. Very traditional and orthodox. The seminarians learn the Extra-ordinary Form, wear cassocks, and live a very traditional seminary life. That seminary is full.

      It’s the same in the USA. The seminary in Lincoln Nebraska, where Bishop Fabian Bruskewitz reigns, is full.

      Who are these men that you know in formation? Where are they? In which order/seminary are they? Are you talking about fellow Deacons?

      But then they grew up!

      Grew up? So you think that getting rid of traditional things is a sign of maturity. So wearing a habit is immature? Praying the rosary in common is immature? Chanting the Divine Office together is immature? Taking the vow of obedience seriously is immature? Taking chastity seriously is immature?

      ??

      Please respond.

    64. Valerie August 16, 2012 at 9:50 pm

      For the record: Here is the official document from the Vatican giving its assessment of the LCWR and associated sisters.

      Official Document from the Vatican

      I think it’s worth reading for our discussion, to hear what Jesus’ Apostles and Teachers are saying to the sisters.

      Val.

    65. Valerie August 16, 2012 at 9:53 pm

      Mr Jimmy,

      Yes, it’s the same for religious orders in Europe. The Nashville Dominicans are full and growing.

      Val.

    66. bamac August 16, 2012 at 11:05 pm

      Val,

      Many thanks for the link … I hadn’t read it all before .The Holy Father had a big hand in its intended and desired implimentation …quoting one paragraph :-

      The Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI, in an Audience granted to the Prefect of the
      Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Cardinal William Joseph Levada, on January 14,
      2011, approved the decisions of the Ordinary Session of the Congregation, and ordered their
      implementation. This action by the Holy Father should be understood in virtue of the
      mandate given by the Lord to Simon Peter as the rock on which He founded his Church (cf.
      Luke 22:32): “I have prayed for you, Peter, that your faith may not fail; and when you have
      turned to me, you must strengthen the faith of your brothers and sisters.” This Scripture
      passage has long been applied to the role of the Successors of Peter as Head of the Apostolic
      College of Bishops; it also applies to the role of the Pope as Chief Shepherd and Pastor of the
      Universal Church. Not least among the flock to whom the Pope’s pastoral concern is directed
      are women Religious of apostolic life, who through the past several centuries have been so
      instrumental in building up the faith and life of the Holy Church of God, and witnessing to
      God’s love for humanity in so many charitable and apostolic worksuoteing one paragraph….

      God Bless Our Holy Father and the Cardinals and Bishops in Rome,

      Shalom

    67. Chris Sullivan August 17, 2012 at 4:46 am

      JimmyG,

      I practice all those traditional things myself !

      God Bless

    68. Chris Sullivan August 17, 2012 at 7:38 am

      Male religious orders, including the Missionaries of the Precious Blood, the Xaverian brothers, the Franciscan brothers and priests, and the Conference of Major Superiors of Men (CMSM), an umbrella group that represents all of the orders of men religious in the United States, have all spoken out in support of the LCWR.

      In their open letter, made public June 7, seven provinces of Franciscan brothers and priests said the Vatican move on the sisters’ group seems “excessive.”

      “Rather than excessive oversight of LCWR, perhaps a better service to the people of God might be a renewed effort to articulate the nuances of our complex moral tradition,” the Franciscans wrote. “This can be a teaching moment rather than a moment of regulation — an opportunity to bring our faith to bear on the complexity of public policy particularly in the midst of our quadrennial elections.”

      The CMSM statement said its members “have been inspired by the sisters’ promotion of Catholic social teaching, their service to so many in health care and education, and their fidelity to the Gospel and service in the Church.”

      http://ncronline.org/news/women-religious/more-priests-brothers-express-support-lcwr

      Many individual clerics have also spoken out in support of the LCWR.

      Abp Carlson addressed last week’s LCWR meeting with warm words of support, also warning of the politics involved in the attacks on the LCWR.

      http://catholicnewslive.com/story/38684

      The brothers stand with our sisters in the LCWR.

      ¡No pasarán!

      God Bless

    69. Dei Verbum August 17, 2012 at 8:07 am

      Deacon Christopher

      Take off the blinkers (or are they scales)

      Do not confuse the good work that the sisters do with the real issue which is their motivation and shonky theology that support what they do and say (and dont say).

      Abp Carlson does not as you say “also warning of the politics involved in the attacks on the LCWR”.

      what he said was: “I pray that the dialogue between the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and LCWR is not politicized but worked out within a community of faith”

      the warning is as much to the ‘sisters’ to not politicize their reactions, which is clearly what they are doing.

      The support from male orders is well intentioned but may also suggest that the problems with the LCWR is also common to some male orders as well which shouldnt surprise .

      Pray for the Church!

    70. Chris Sullivan August 17, 2012 at 10:42 am

      On the contrary Dei, the orthopraxy of the LCWR sisters points to their orthodoxy.

      Which is a whole lot more than can be said of the “orthopraxy” of Cdl Law and other Bishops bullying the LCWR, whose disgraceful covering up and enabling of child sex abuse has caused so much damage and scandal to the Church.

      And it’s also a whole lot more than can be said of the “orthopraxy” of the boys in Rome who promoted Cdl Law to a cushy Vatican job after he resigned in disgrace from Boston.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Francis_Law

      The National Coalition of American Nuns applauded the LCWR for its “obedience through a prayerful discernment process” in an important statement on the importance, and limits, of religious obedience.

      http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/ncan-lauds-lcwrs-obedience-stand

      God Bless

    71. Valerie August 17, 2012 at 10:48 am

      Deacon Sullivan,

      You said to Mr Jimmy “I practice all those traditional things myself”, so I don’t understand. Are you saying that you’re immature? Or are you saying that those are not the “traditional” things which they got rid of, which meant that they grew up? If so, which are these traditional things that they got rid of, which meant that they matured?

      I noticed that Ann Carey discusses these things in that EWTN interview. She says that Vatican II, when calling for up-dating and renewal of religious life, was referring to certain minor things, and smaller details of prudential concern within religious life, e.g., previously religious were not allowed to visit the home of lay people, and were often required by law to travel in pairs. Changes at those levels, seem like a good reforms to me; and they were changed, almost universally, even amongst religious orders which remained faithful to traditional religious life. Most religious orders no longer have such a smaller laws, especially the apostolic orders, i.e., those involved in the community etc. Are you referring to lesser laws such as this? If so, I agree.

      However, almost all traditional religious orders (except the cloistered monastic ones) have updated these canonical laws, around day-to-day practical things.

      So, what are we talking about? Are we talking about ditching the Rosary, Divine office, Adoration, Habits, Community Life, Obedience to Superiors, and authentic ascetical practices, etc, or are we talking about these other lesser things, such as “travelling in pairs” etc?

      As I see it, the LCWR and the other sisters like them, have ditched ALL these things, not just the lesser things.

      To what do you refer?

      Mrs Mac,

      Yes, it’s obvious that the Holy Father is behind this and fully supports this clean up. It is not, as Deacon Sullivan suggests, just politics from some “conservative” bishops. One article from that terrible publication, The Tablet, does not truth make.

      Val.

    72. bamac August 17, 2012 at 11:32 am

      Chris,

      You made a sweeping statement in #55 :-

      Vocations to religious orders were at an exceptional peak in the 1950?s due to an unusual combination of social factors which are now no longer in play. For example, religious life gave a freedom and educational possibilities then not open to many women – but that is no longer the case. In some ways that is a good thing because back then many vocations were not genuine callings

      Were you personally around then in the 1950′s? I was. During those years I had a great deal of close contact with many nuns with whom I worked and lived and did volunteer work … many of my friends entered various orders none of which were wealthy as you seem to claim.

      After much prayer I felt that God was leading me to enter the Little Sisters Of the Poor …I was accepted and spent two years in the home and then in the Noviate …. Mother Mistress discerned that that was not meant for me … the wonderful girls who were in the Noviate with me and the proffessed as well , had followed true calling and have spent many years serving God in lives of prayer and work ,as have all but a couple of my friends who entered at the same time or there abouts.

      God in His goodness let me spend three years in the New Guinea Mission field where I worked with many wonderful nuns and religious all of whom were very happy in their calling . where do you get you ideas from ?

      You talk about girls having taken it up for freedom and education… yes, freedom from worldly distractions, freedom from wondering what to do next , freedom to spend time with our Blessed Lord in His Eucharistic home, freedom to offer our work, suffering and joys to God as prayer …. education ? yes for we learnt the meaning of true love of God and our neighbour. We were taught the wonderful blessings of following deeply the Vow of Holy Obedience where we would give everything to God in love ,including our will and the work that was assigned to us where ever we might be sent.

      In your comments Chris, to me you come across at times as being judgemental, not only telling us that many vocations were not true calling ( by the way what is the difference today when men and women feel called to give their lives to God as nuns, brothers, priests or deacons , is there any less chance that they , like me, might be mistaken?) You also claim that there is hatred in some of the comments … I don’t believe so, just as I don’t believe that there is hatred in yours when you name people as

      conservative cliques, right-wing consevative

      or other labels you have used in comments over the years.

      You mentioned articles in the Tablet, If that is the one from England , I put it in the same questionable box as NCR and Tui Motu… does anyone else agree? I could be wrong .

      Thank you Marty for the post which has made this old girle even more grateful for all the blessings that God has put into her life thus far, be she ever so unworthy.

      Shalom

    73. Chris Sullivan August 17, 2012 at 11:36 am

      They grew up from a narrow, rigid, authoritarian, Jansenist spirituality into the loving, gentle, kind, Christ-like, prophetic spirituality at the service of the poor which one sees in the good LCWR sisters today.

      Which is exactly what Vatican II asked them do.

      I admire the LCWR sisters because they really understand the Gospel, and, what’s more, they live it.

      Which is a whole lot more than can be said of some of their detractors.

      God Bless

    74. bamac August 17, 2012 at 11:41 am

      Chris,

      You were partly right too when you said that the sister in NCWR had grown<em only their growth has been away from the true Catholic idea of religious life and behavior and not grown up

      I forgot to put Wikipedia in that questionable box I mentioned for the information shared under their heading can come from anyone at all cannt it?

      Shalom

    75. Opthomistic August 17, 2012 at 11:44 am

      “Which is a whole lot more than can be said of the “orthopraxy” of Cdl Law and other Bishops bullying the LCWR, whose disgraceful covering up and enabling of child sex abuse has caused so much damage and scandal to the Church.”

      Yes, the LCWR’s covering up and enabling of child sex abuse is disgraceful and has caused a lot of damage and scandal to the Church:

      https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/snap/pages/1709/attachments/original/1344353696/lcwr_handout.pdf?1344353696

    76. Valerie August 17, 2012 at 12:11 pm

      Deacon Sullivan,

      You characterize far too simplistically. You don’t have enough knowledge, nor to you have the nuance to understand the reality.

      We accept that Jansenism, and a certain stoicism, was present in certain groups within the Church, and lead to a certain harshness in style, life, and attitude. That is well known.

      And it still exists today in many places. And before you accuse others, maybe consider that your attitude towards the Pope and Bishops lacks compassion and understanding, and contains some traces of a jansenistic theology?

      But to think that all religious orders were imbued with it, is wrong.

      Further, many groups have thrown off those old tendencies and reformed, entering into a proper vision of love, and especially mercy, within their religious profession. It’s so different now.

      You need to visit the new communities and religious orders. Have you visited any of these new Groups? Especially the women’s groups? I have. They have kept the good stuff (habits, and traditional religious life) but have abandoned any semblance of Jansenism and its harshness, and have an authentic understanding of love and mercy motivating their whole life. This is because they are deeply rooted in a loving relationship with Jesus their Spouse.

      If you haven’t visited these Communities then you cannot comment.

      You don’t know. You are not informed.

      What many of the religious orders did after Vat II, was to throw the baby out with the bath water, and simply adopt certain worldly things, as if these were the “updates” requested by Vatican II. They were and are mistaken. They often incorporated secular attitudes foreign to the spirit of the Gospel, foreign to the mind of Christ, and His Church; and threw out things which were essential.

      Also, they often misunderstood mercy as “letting anything go”, and began to adopt a false idea of love, which divorced the requirement of truth to be present in real love. This is because they became infected by many different modern ideas, including New Age, but also many other defective theologies, often influenced by Marxism, and socialism. In short, they didn’t discern carefully enough, and it lead to their demise.

      In the pursuit of freeing things up a bit, and being more “loving,” they abandoned much of the sacrificial life that they were called to out of LOVE for Christ. So, they got confused and thought of everything in traditional religious life was a result of Jansenism, or other inhuman ideologies. That is just simply rubbish. It’s “Twaddle” as Mr Banter says.

      And as Mrs Mac has testified to, your simplistic generalization, is not accurate for many of the Orders (and their particular individual members) who did live in extraordinary charity, mercy, compassion, and sensitivity for those within their own ranks, and for those whom they served.

      I went back and had a look at one of the links I posted in #9. Here is a comical excerpt.

      Take a look at that video (the one of Hubbard that Mr Rethul directed us to), as much of it as you can manage without laughing so hard you pee your pants. The speaker is a California New Age guru named Barbara Marx Hubbard, who apparently survives on kombucha and pot brownies. This dear old thing descended from the clouds to be the keynote speaker at this week’s annual conference of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, the main organization of U.S. Catholic nuns, whom the Vatican is trying to bring back to reality.

      Note well: this was their keynote speaker. I defy you to watch BMH and to tell me what she’s talking about. The words sound like English, but they don’t mean anything. I think she must be the mother of the late space-cadet magician Doug Henning.

      The poor pope, bless his heart, is trying to save these American kooks from themselves, and is getting nothing but grief for it. Nuns who actually take a screwball like Barbara Marx Hubbard seriously are to be pitied, but the Vatican should just relax. I don’t think there’s any danger that they will be a threat to anybody in the future. Because they won’t be around:

      Then he gives the stats…

      The number of sisters in the majority of religious communities of women in the United States has been in fairly rapid decline over the past five years, dropping from 60,642 in 2007 to 46,451 today.

      That loss of 14,191 sisters was reported by the Leadership Conference of Women Religious during its annual assembly in Garden Grove, Calif., last month. The conference, whose members lead 95 percent of the sisters in communities in the U.S., projects the loss of another 2,787 sisters in 2012.

      This dramatic diminishment is the result of the death of women who joined the communities during the heyday of vocations in the 1940s, ’50s and ’60s, as well as fewer new members over the past 30 years.

      The Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate reported in 2009 that 91 percent of women religious with final vows were at least 60 years old and that a majority of those under the age of 60 were in their 50s. Additionally, CARA reported that more than half of the women in initial formation in LCWR institutes are 40 or older.

      Val.

    77. Valerie August 17, 2012 at 12:53 pm

      Breaking News: The LCWR have released a “Support Song”, to lift their spirits, during this time of inquisitorial interrogation

      Val.

    78. banter August 17, 2012 at 1:02 pm

      Chris,

      I am sure there are some lovely faithful nuns who do wonderful charitable works and love the church within the LCWR. That is not being disputed. But it is actually irrelevant to the central argument being presented in Marty’s post. Anybody, can do charitable works and take up political causes. Greenpeace for example but that doesn’t make them Catholic per se. It is whether these nuns are still properly Catholic in their thinking that is being questioned.

      It seems to me to be quite clear that they have become a bit confused and wayward. It is encapsulated in that one gesture of asking Mother Hubbard to speak at their recent conference. You say you have seen not proof of their doctrinal errors but is this not proof pretty much? Anybody who thinks what Barbara Hubbard is peddling is at all Catholic must be suspect. And yet she’s the KEYNOTE speaker at their most recent conference. Why would that be? What does that say about these nuns?

      The concern is that her type of ‘theology’ has the potential to corrupt minds and lead these good nuns astray and allow odd ideas to creep in. Surely you can see that. It’s quackery. If you can’t see it then, as Val says above, go and watch that YouTube clip again.

      Evidence that futurist stuff like this is corrupting their thinking is found in the final blessing from the LCWR conference (thanks to Val above who found it):
      From the Source of Everything
      From the Ground of Being
      Receive strength and light, receive peace, receive love
      From our hearts to your hearts, from our souls to your souls
      Receive strength and light, receive peace , receive love.

      Where is our Trinitarian God? Why do they not ask God the Father and Son and Holy Spirit to bless. Why don’t they say ‘The Lord bless you and keep you’. ‘And may Almighty God the Father bless you’. No these nuns aren’t using the traditional words. The language is changing or being changed and with it their Catholicism. What is the Ground of Being anyway?

      I think it is quite important to use evidence-based arguments – might be my medical training. A lot of the posts above are quoting from newspaper articles. Most newspapers will have an inherent bias either traditional or conservative. The information is always secondhand. The two examples I’ve quoted above are from the horse’s mouth: you can see Mother Hubbard herself live on YouTube and also the final blessing on YouTube. Both of these look a bit dodge to me.

    79. Dominican August 17, 2012 at 1:14 pm

      Deacon Sullivan

      Expressions such as “the boys in Rome” are hardly edifying for one in your position

    80. Abenader August 17, 2012 at 4:48 pm

      Chris
      With all due respect. Surely, if God asked you to become a deacon, then it stands to reason that you would listen to His voice and harden not your heart (and that includes all of us who profess to love Him). Why then, do you insist on defending these ‘aging rebels’? Those who will not listen to His voice by not listening to those he has appointed. By not listening to Peter. These rebels who would rather serve man than seek first the kingdom of God.
      Is not obedience (especially for consecrated religious) important anymore or do we use ‘our own’ conscience as a guide?

    81. bamac August 17, 2012 at 9:46 pm

      Val,

      Thank you for both of your video clips …. if you hadn’t told us that the women portrayed in either of them were nuns … would any of us have known ? I have the song ” Sisters” on one of my sing along cd’s of old… it will give me a new chuckle next time I play it …if and when .

      If the leaders of LCWR do not change, as the Vatican wants them to then I too will say and pray go sisters..going,going gone!

      I know Chris, that God loves them just as He loves each and every one of us,but does He love their lack of obedience if they do not change …pride along with lack of obedience are such big stumbling blocks don’t you think?

      shalom

    82. Valerie August 18, 2012 at 8:44 am

      Deacon Sullivan, and Mrs Helen,

      I would like you two to read these excerpts from Barbara Hubbard, and then answer these three questions for me.

      1. What is she talking about and how does it fit with the Faith?
      2. Why have the LCWR chosen her and promoted her?
      3. Why is it a good thing that they have chosen her?

      It has become obvious that a creative minority of humanity is undergoing a profound inner mutation or transformation. Evolutionary ideas are not only serving to make sense of this change, but also acting to catalyze the potential within us to transform.

      It is the planetary crisis into which we were born that is awakening our sleeping potential for transformation. Planet Earth has given birth to a species capable of choosing whether to consciously evolve ourselves and our social forms, or to continue the course we have set toward our own extinction. And the choice is clear.

      All great spiritual paths lead us to this threshold of our own consciousness, but none can guide us across the great divide — from the creature human to the cocreative human. None can guide us in managing the vast new powers given us by science and technology. None of us have been there yet.

      What we can envision:

      The enriched noosphere, the thinking layer of Earth, is now replete with evolutionary technologies that can transform the material world. Within the next 30 to 50 years, we could transform our physical bodies, our minds, our social structures, and set in motion the emergence of a new civilization.

      Science: It is said that the power of quantum computing may increase exponentially in the next 50 years bordering on silicon-based life. At the same time biologists studying aging, cloning, and stem cells tell us we may reverse aging and gain a sort of immortality. One scientist writes, “We may live 600 years and only die by accident.”

      Moving deeply into the nature of matter, students of zero point energy believe that we can tap into and use the infinite sea of energy that underlies everything. Furthermore, with nanotechnology we can build as nature does—atom by atom.

      Expanding beyond the earth itself, space engineers envision the formation of an extraterrestrial sphere, much as hundreds of millions of years ago the biosphere was formed. We can live in an integrated Earth/Space environment restoring the Earth, freeing ourselves from hunger and poverty, exploring the vast untapped potential of human cocreativity.

      Social systems: As we shift from maximum procreation to cocreation, the Feminine would be liberated from its restrictive roles, as men and women cocreate in a balanced way for the good of the larger human family. The Masculine would be released from its long-standing roles of patriarch and protector to discover the peace and ease of true relationship and cocreation.

      Patterns of unification are set in motion already, as nonprofit, corporate, and governmental alliances are built around countless initiatives. Those that are successful are already witnessing the melting of borders and boundaries that have prevented successful compromise and negotiation in the past. Political events, like the fall of the Berlin wall, are foreshadowing the possibility of unification around the globe, and creating the hope that seemingly insurmountable problems may find yet find solutions.

      Spiritual grounding: Jesus said, “These and even greater works shall you do.” We may actually be on the threshold of those abilities that Christ was able to do and that He foresaw as possibilities for us all. Specifically, the ability to use conscious intent, perhaps in conjunction with scientific and technological capacities, will allow us to create bodies sensitive to thought. We may find ourselves transforming the human body from its physical, animal, degenerating phase to a regenerating and evolving phase.

      This capability would be the fulfillment of the words of St. Paul: “Behold I show you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound. This corruptible will become incorruptible. This mortal will put on immortality and death shall be swallowed up in victory.”

      This would also be the emergence of what Alan Lithman calls, psyche materialis, and what the Bible calls, Adam of the quickening Spirit.

      Sri Aurobindo named the human being with this ability, the gnostic being; Teilhard de Chardin called it the ultra person; and I have selected the name, universal human and universal humanity. This type of human is a quantum jump beyond the species Homo sapiens. It is a new species that is incubating in millions now.

      This is a Naissance; this is new for Earth — but it is not new for the universe. The name universal human is good because it connotes the reality that we are entering the phase of universal life.

      Although we may never know what really happened, we do know that the story told in the Gospels is that Jesus’ resurrection was a first demonstration of what I call the post-human universal person. We are told that he did not die. He made his transition, released his animal body, and reappeared in a new body at the next level of physicality to tell all of us that we would do what he did. The new person that he became had continuity of consciousness with his life as Jesus of Nazareth, an earthly life in which he had become fully human and fully divine. Jesus’ life stands as a model of the transition from Homo sapiens to Homo universalis.

      Summary:

      Now millions of earthly humans from every spiritual tradition, from many social movements and scientific lineages of human inquiry, are evolving to the stage at which they recognize their soul, their higher self. They are becoming willing, even passionately desire, to be one with that Self. And as a critical mass of humans evolving toward their new capacities arise, humanity will undergo an unprecedented shifting in our entire way of being on this planet.

      We are the generations born into this moment in history. Our powers are immense. We can destroy the earth as we know it, or alternatively, transform the material and societal limits of human life. We or our children may actually live to experience either the destruction of our life support systems (with unimaginable consequences for billions of people), or the literal transformation of our bodies from creature human life cycle to cocreative human life cycle. The choice is ours.

      Thanks, Val.

    83. bamac August 18, 2012 at 12:10 pm

      Val,

      Apologies and thanks … apologies for not waiting for either Chris or Helens Bay to respond to what you quoted and thanks indeed for having taken so much trouble …. Indeed how could the nuns have wanterd to have a person who somehow or other can believe such incredable gobbledigook ?

      Not a crucix in sight but members waving orange scarves around the speaker….sad is not a strong enough word in my books.

      One of the paragraphs quoted that made me feel saddest was this one

      Although we may never know what really happened, we do know that the story told in the Gospels is that Jesus’ resurrection was a first demonstration of what I call the post-human universal person. We are told that he did not die. He made his transition, released his animal body, and reappeared in a new body at the next level of physicality to tell all of us that we would do what he did. The new person that he became had continuity of consciousness with his life as Jesus of Nazareth, an earthly life in which he had become fully human and fully divine. Jesus’ life stands as a model of the transition from Homo sapiens to Homo universalis.

      Thanks again Val,

      Pray for those nuns, pray for all our consecrated peolpe and pray for our Holy Church

      Mrs Mac

    84. Valerie August 18, 2012 at 2:23 pm

      Thank you Mrs Mac.

      Yes, me must pray for these sisters. Thank you for the reminder.

      “Gobledegook” is right. It’s unadulterated quackery, as Mr Banter has said. Good old Gnostic heresy, and New Age pantheism.

      That paragraph you mentioned is so crooked and confused. Why would they invite somebody who thinks that, and teaches it?

      I have met several nuns in NZ who have spouted exactly those things to me. It’s sad, and sickening, and distressing. I say sickening, because these nuns are in positions of influence, and give courses in a special spirituality center. They are poisoning others with their stuff.

      Mr Banter, thank you for post #79. Some great points. Thanks for transcribing that “blessing” that they gave. It’s like Mrs Mac said, no crucifixes, no habits, no religious images, no normal Catholic prayers, no expressions of Catholic Faith?… Sr Farrel (their president) talks about getting rid of the “human constructs” of “good/bad”. She thinks that the real distinction between good and evil is just human invention. So confused. What next? Removing the “human construct” of “God/Devil”?

      Additionally, CARA reported that more than half of the women in initial formation in LCWR institutes are 40 or older.

      This statistic says a lot. Any newer members are 40 and older, most likely, I would say, 50 and older. That is very significant. It shows that younger women (18-40) do not find them attractive, or inspiring. I have said it before: All the young women I know would not touch them with a barge pole, but with a cattle prod. They are more interested in the real Faith, and Sisters who live the real Faith, because they themselves have the real Faith, and have the “sensus fidei”

      Val.

    85. Valerie August 18, 2012 at 2:32 pm

      This is a must-watch. It’s 50 minutes long. It’s an EWTN theology discussion about the decade long process that the Vatican took with respect to the LCWR, and the patience that has been shown them. Some might say that too much patience has been shown.
      Worth watching.

    86. bamac August 18, 2012 at 4:36 pm

      Val,

      Thank you once more … the above video discussion was enlightening and , for me, in a big way consoling, for we have been encouraged to believe that there are a vast number of sisters who go along with the ideas expressed by the Leadership group … we are assured here that it is a matter of some fifteen hundred … no doubt this will be contradicted by some but it has been studied and found to be correct, God bless Anne Carey for one, thank you again Val.

      Mrs Mac
      shalom

    87. JimmyG August 18, 2012 at 9:50 pm

      Valerie, thanks for your posts and videos. I am watching at present.

      Bamac, yes, it seems like these 1500 hundred have “controlled” things. It’s time for a change in their hierarchical structure which has suppressed many others.

    88. Don the Kiwi August 19, 2012 at 11:37 am

      Thanks for that EWTN link Val.
      It really does explain quite succinctly what the problem is with the LCWR.
      With reference to Barabara Marx Hubbard, who is an Agnostic, it is rather surprising that they would have her as a guest presenter ot their conference, and because of her beliefs, it is not surprising that she would say things like:
      ” Although we may never know what really happened, we do know that the story told in the Gospels is that Jesus’ resurrection was a first demonstration of what I call the post-human universal person. We are told that he did not die.

      To say that Jesus did not die is antithetical to the Christian Faith – if Jesus did not die, then he did not resurrect, and so, as St.Paul tells us, “We are still in our sins.”
      So to have a presentation like that at a Catholic(so called) womens conference is like getting Obama to be guest presenter at the Voice for Life conference.

      So I think it is clearly demonstated that teh LCWR has been off the rails for at least two decades, and running rampant in the wrong direction, and gathering momentum. I know of at least one order of women religious in this country which has not had any new postulants since 1992 – 20 years ago; yet I konw of a couple orthodox orders of women religious which have stuck to the Charism of their founder that are gaining vocations annually. The proof of the pudding, and all that.

    89. Valerie August 19, 2012 at 11:59 am

      Mrs Mac,

      Yes, it is consoling isn’t it. It’s good to hear more details of how everything developed. Thanks be to God for Ann Carey. What a wonderful Catholic woman.

      What a martyrdom for those sisters who remained within their orders, and had to put up with so much corruption and distortion. That is heroic.

      Mr Kiwi,

      Yes, the proof is in the pudding. That discussion from EWTN is very good.

      I was interested to hear about the sisters who wrote to the LCWR complaining about the misrepresentation that Sr Theresa Kane subjected them to, when she openly berated Pope John Paul when he visited the USA in ’79. It’s 9 minutes into the video. She called for the ordination of women when she addressed him.

      That open chastisement of John Paul II lead to many faithful Catholic sisters writing to the LCWR saying “How dare you say that, you have misrepresented us.” One particular Order took out an advert in the Washington Post a few days after Kane’s public attack on the Holy Father, denouncing Kane’s remarks and distanced themselves from the stance taken by her. They apologized to the Holy Father. Kane was president of the LCWR at the time.

      This is what Fr Z writes about Kane now: She has not let the women priesthood thing go obviously, and has aposticized.

      Theresa Kane: as president of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious (LCWR) in 1979, she greeted Pope John Paul II at the National Shrine in Washington, D.C. In her address she urged him to open all ministries of Church life to women. Her remarks made headlines around the world. Shortly after her address, she stated that “as a result of the greeting, a few congregations withdrew from the conference. Through that experience LCWR became more public; the membership gained new responsibilities.” Today she supports women in deciding to undergo fake ordinations of women in the Catholic Church as if they were real. “The Roman Catholic women priesthood is small, highly criticized, and not going away,” she went on. “No one controls our future but ourselves.”

      “No one controls our future but ourselves.” – straight out of the mouth of sinful Eve. I’ll define my reality, not Christ! or His Church!

      Mr Jimmy,

      Yes, … it seems that all their talk of transparency, listening, dialogue, and openness, is just bluster, and bluster in one direction only – towards their ideology and towards their secularized version of “religious” life.

      The LCWR have probably staged a coup over many years, and managed to get hold of “control” of about 60,000 sisters in the USA. Slowly forcing many to adopt their style and views. For all their talk about the Vatican abusing their “power”, I bet there are a few sisters in the USA who could tell us some stories about the LCWR dominating through power and suppression.

      Val.

    90. Don the Kiwi August 19, 2012 at 12:32 pm

      Valeria
      11.59.

      You address me as ” Mr. Kiwi”.
      I’m actually Mr. Beckett – but just “Don” is fine. :-)

    91. Dei Verbum August 19, 2012 at 2:00 pm

      #83 Well said Val
      still waiting for a reply from Deacon Christopher

    92. bamac August 19, 2012 at 2:31 pm

      Banter,

      Earlier on this thread you wondered how things might be “down under” if things were different here ….Don mentioned the Mercy Spirituality Centre here in NZ.

      In Queensland the Mercy nuns have been even more active …

      http://members.ozemail.com.au/Wanderer.htm

      Sr. Elaine Wainwright, a Mercy sister, who is now lecturing in theology here at CIT, was very much involved with their doings in Q’ld when she was there.

      Another link

      http://www.ad2000.com.au/articles/2006/feb2006p10_2146.html

      Please say a prayer for the new bishop in Brisbane that God will indeed strengthen him .

      God Bless Our Holy Father who must indeed be concerned about the world wide attacks on the Holy Church from within and from without.

      Mrs Mac,
      shalom

    93. bamac August 19, 2012 at 2:49 pm

      This link might /should explain why I asked for your prayers for the new Bishop in brisbane :-

      http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1072333/posts
      Thank you for your prayers in advance,

      Mrs Mac

    94. bamac August 19, 2012 at 5:07 pm

      Apologies for the first link I gave … it seems to have got lost …one more try…. I hope my comments were not too far off thread…

      http://members.ozemail.com.au/~trps/Wanderer.htm

      fingers crossed .. more apologies if it gets lost again,

    95. banter August 19, 2012 at 7:37 pm

      Many thanks Val for that ETWN clip. It was very interesting indeed. Towards the end of that session they mention a ‘systems handbook’ that is available to read on the LCWR website. I don’t know whether any of you have decided to have a look at this ‘systems handbook’. It is still available to read and it’s worth a look because it gives a really clear insight into the sort of stuff the sisters indulge in. It’s quite a long document and it sort of waffles on, but at the end they give a few examples of how the this sort of systems analysis might work.

      The first example is the one mentioned by the presenters on the ETWN clip. It is the debate about whether to have a mass or not because it divides the sisters amongst themselves. I think this is classic. Chris, some posts ago #39 you said:

      I have yet to see any evidence that there actually are any doctrinal problems with the LCWR. Lots of hot air and wild claims. But nothing in the way of actual evidence that stands up to even the most cursory investigation.

      Well you have to wonder what on earth this sort of stuff is sitting on their website for. Of all places! It invites the suspicion that their thinking is doctrinal aberrant? The evidence is in the paper trail as the ETWN speakers say – it’s in their publications.

      Everybody have a bit of read. Sorry haven’t worked out how to do that linking thing you all do to the Internet.

    96. banter August 19, 2012 at 8:17 pm

      Bamac,

      Thank you also for highlighting the activities of the Mercy sisters in Queensland, Australia (very scary), and also Dei Verbum for directing me to that NZ Mercy Sisters website. Definitely some odd stuff sitting on that website as well.

      Wow how did this all happen? How did it get so far?

      With regard to your post Val #83 which includes the long quote from Barbara Hubbard. Some of it was starting to make sense to me after a while. AHHH! NO! HELP! But there is a movement afoot called the Singularity. In all seriousness there are a large number of computer and techno type people around now that say that techological developements are accelerating at an exponential rate. In about the year 2045 artificial intelligence will become self-aware…

      We also will have integrated ourselves fully into these technological advances. We will be able to leave our corruptible bodies behind and integrate our consciousness into a computer network. And we all be interconnected with one another via this cyber network and we will live forever. Google ‘singularity’ and have a quick read. It’s Mother Hubbard without the quasi-religious aspect. The thing that is important to note is that the Singularity movement, while is sounds like science fiction (It sounds like The Borg off Star Trek the New Generation) it’s being taken completely seriously and there is some proper science behind it.

      Anyway off topic. It’s just I recognized the general tenor behind some of her words.

    97. Marty Rethul August 19, 2012 at 8:29 pm

      Sounds like the Matrix movies, banter.

      For linking to something, do the following:

      1. From the website to which you wish to link, copy the website address (right click, copy).

      2. Type in a mini title in your post here, such as ‘Being Frank’ (without inverted commas).

      3. Then highlight it with your mouse (left click, hold till you’ve got your word[s]).

      4. Then click the ‘Link’ toolbar button above your post.

      5. And simply paste the web address that you copied in step 1.

      Being Frank

      Hey Presto!

    98. banter August 19, 2012 at 8:39 pm

      Hey Marty,

      Great post. So many have contributed – nearly 100 comments in response!!!

    99. Marty Rethul August 19, 2012 at 8:48 pm

      Thanks.

      And I thought I’d raise the bat myself – why not?!

      Banter – #98 wasn’t a bad post was it?

    100. banter August 19, 2012 at 9:24 pm

      Marty,

      Yes got post #98. It must have come in while I was writing #99. Thank you I’ll follow these instructs next time:)

      Finally this eve, I’d still like to take issue with the nuns’ dress sense generally speaking. At the risk of sounding peevish well it’s all just rather frumpy looking. You know there really were some rather valid reasons for wearing a habit because goodness look what happens… It’s all 3/4 pants, sneakers and florid oversized blouses. It’s like they’ve swapped one uniform for another. I mean well they could all do with a fashion advisor perhaps… Maybe somebody could suggest such a person to be the keynote speaker at their next conference. I’m sorry but it doesn’t do it for me. Maybe somebody could start a Facebook campaign ‘Bring Back The Habit’. And all the lay people (but only the women) could sign it and then it would be a sort of down up model of the church in action. No nasty hierarchy…

      Clearly it time for me to quit this evening. Just in case you’re a sensitivite:
      “This post isn’t meant to be taken seriously”

      ;)

    101. Dei Verbum August 20, 2012 at 8:05 am

      singularity?
      what a God-incidence a friend had just sent me this

      http://facingthesingularity.com/

      worth a read, but of interest is this site is from a lapsed Evangelical turned atheist. He may have alot in common with the LCWR.

      It seems that science is the new ‘God’ not just for the LCWR

      We need to be informed and well done ‘Being Frank’

      Deacon Christopher has gone quiet? still waiting for #83

      Pray for the Church!

    102. bamac August 20, 2012 at 10:15 am

      D.V.,

      Maybe Deacon Chris and Helens Bay have privately realized that they just might be wrong and would rather stay quiet on this thread, God bless them both anyway,

      Mrs Mac

    103. Valerie August 20, 2012 at 10:38 am

      Mr Dei Verbum,

      Yes, this post from Mr Rethul has been most informative and rewarding.

      Deacon Sullivan will not return. He is currently overloaded with important work. He is trying to set up the LCMD – the Leadership Conference of Men Deacons, so that they can have a certain autonomy in their own governance and decision-making, apart from the horrible oppressive structures which currently mean that they report to Bishops and Priests.

      Because, of course, as Deacon Sullivan has mentioned many times before, Women Deacons are going to happen one day, so a LCMD is appropriate and necessary.

      Mr Banter,

      I read that Systems Handbook. It’s unbelievable. It’s like a company structural handbook. It’s devoid of any reference to anything vaguely spiritual or deeply connected to religious life, or the Church. It’s sterile and weird. Maybe that’s normal for such an organisation, but it doesn’t look healthy to me.

      Val.

    104. Valerie August 20, 2012 at 10:48 am

      Maybe Deacon Chris and Helens Bay have privately realized that they just might be wrong and would rather stay quiet on this thread

      Mrs Mac,

      Hope springs eternal!

      However, I doubt that to be the case. For them the LCWR are innocent persecuted Jesus-figures, and the Pope and his men, are the Pharisees and the Romans.

      What does this say? Rome is evil, the LCWR are saints.

      They’re not going to change that perception without some interior conversion on the things that the LCWR stand for. That’s why Deacon Sullivan and Mrs Helen defend them so vigorously. What the LCWR stands for, is what Deacon Sullivan and Mrs Helen stand for. They are kindred spirits.

      Val.

    105. Valerie August 20, 2012 at 10:59 am

      Here is another video from EWTN.

      The topic of the LCWR starts at 9minutes, but most of the stuff from 9 to 11:25, is well-known to us, and is a repeat. However, at 11:25, they show Bishop Blair making an announcement about the doctrinal assessment. He condemns the way the media has reported it, and speaks about why this has all come about. Deacon Sullivan and Mrs Helen would do well to listen to Bishop Blair, as he addresses their very arguments and says that they are false. It starts at 11:25. Bishop Blair lists out the problems from 13.37.

      Val.

    106. bamac August 20, 2012 at 12:43 pm

      Val,

      Thank you for that EWTN video….it said so much.

      We have , I am sure, been praying for the sisters in LCWR but must we not< too, pray for the sisters who do not at all agree with the leadership group ? things must seem so hard and sad for them Shalom

    107. bamac August 20, 2012 at 9:32 pm

      Another link worth reading on topic:-

      http://www.theird.org/issues/faith-in-the-public-square/nuns-on-a-bust-irrationality-disobedience-and-conscious-evolution-

      Chris, Helens Bay , if you truly believe that the leaders of LCWR are innocent of the charges as you have been saying here ,please tell us as your silence makes me feel sure that you now no longer believe in them and that the investigation was necessary after all.

      shalom

    108. Chris Sullivan August 21, 2012 at 9:12 am

      I have followed the thread above and have yet to find ANY evidence of any problems with the LCWR leadership excepting the point made by the National Catholic Reporter and SNAP about dialogue with and support for victims of abuse by nuns (which was horrific in times past as the Irish government’s investigation showed, although it never seemed to occur to the Bishops or to Rome to launch any investigations!).

      Doubtless there are some problems with individuals and with certain orders (as there are in the more conservative orders – the Legion of Christ / Regnum Christi, and even Opus Dei to a lessor extent, being particularly notorious).

      This is all politics.

      I was talking to, I think, the vocations director for the Little Sisters of the Poor recently. They are a wonderful traditional order but they have had NO New Zealand vocations for some 30 years. Lack of vocations to LCWR affiliated orders tells us more about social changes pertaining to women and about Catholic faith commitment than it does about the orthodoxy of the LCWR or the Little Sisters of the Poor.

      A friend who was once on our parish council caused quite a stir when he said that our lack of vocations is due to our lack of faith. I think he’s largely correct, although it’s also true that the Church puts some unnecessary obstacles in the way, such as the insistence on priestly celibacy in the Latin rite although not in any other rite in the Catholic Church.

      God Bless

    109. Marty Rethul August 21, 2012 at 9:59 am

      Deacon Sullivan you astonish me.

    110. Valerie August 21, 2012 at 10:21 am

      Deacon Sullivan,

      I am reminded of a conversation from a well-known movie:

      Anakin Skywalker: “I should have known that the Jedi were planning to take over.”
      Obiwan Kenobi: “Anakin, Chancellor Palpatine is evil.”
      Anakin Skywalker: “From my point of view, the Jedi are evil.”
      Obiwan Kenobi: “Well then you are lost!”

      If you only view these pastoral maneuvers from the Successor of Saint Peter as politics, as a take over from the Vatican, then, well, as Obiwan says, “You are lost.”

      Today is the feast of Pope St Pius X, and the Gospel for today is from John 21:15-17, where Jesus asks Peter, “How much do you love me,” and after each response, Jesus says, “Feed MY Lambs”, “Look after MY sheep,” and “Feed MY sheep.

      Pope Benedict is attempting to look after Jesus’ Sheep in the LCWR by gently bringing them back into the Heart of the Fold, but the evil one is prowling around like a roaring lion, looking for people to eat.

      Using one example, like that of the Little Sisters of Poor, does not make for a strong argument. Nobody with any knowledge of the world denies that the social factors contribute a lot. But there are other factors, which have been covered here in this thread, and the decline of the LCWR communities is a large reflection of their spiritual health, which are those other factors.

      That would be my main concern with you as a Deacon: You can’t discern truth from error, only right and left, conservative and liberal.

      Cardinal Ratzinger deals with this issue in his book on conscience. Truth no longer has any place in the mind of the modern man and woman, it’s now about collective adherence to one group or another (right or left; conservative or liberal), and any discernment of “truth” is not discerned as such, but is reduced to that level, to that formal categorization, of whether one is acting out of loyalty to this group or that. So, instead of asking “Is it true” and “How do we find out if it is true,” people now just say, “What is your political motive?”, i.e., “what group do you belong to”, and “that is why you say that,” because “you belong to that group”.

      It’s a fruit of Marxism, and a deep distrust of the human capacity (intelligence) to discern truth from error. It ends in complete relativism.

      Val.

    111. Valerie August 21, 2012 at 12:23 pm

      Deacon Sullivan,

      Any chance that you will reply to #83?

      Val.

    112. bamac August 21, 2012 at 12:29 pm

      Chris,

      Thank you for responding even if I don’t agree with what you say. I am sorry that your tunnel vision is centred on the reports as given in NCR, American, and Wikipedia rather than the concerns that have caused the Holy Father and Rome to look deeply into the LCWR, their conferences and vision over the last number of years…prayer and study which lead them to the necessary investigation and to the advice and instructions they gave the group as the result of it.

      Looking back over so many of your comments Chris , you imply, so often , that this and other matters in the Church are politically driven … how far off key you are on that. Our Holy Father is wanting, not only the leaders Of LCWR, but all of us to lead God centred lives of prayer and love for God Himself and Holy Mother Church and what she teaches, and not to treat our Faith as a smorgasbord from which we can pick and choose what we want to accept and live by and what we prefer to ignore and consider unimportant… let alone add our own bits as well…. that is choosing our own priorities in what ever field our God given vocation may be.

      shalom

      Mrs Mac

    113. Valerie August 21, 2012 at 12:36 pm

      Well said Mrs Mac.

    114. Chris Sullivan August 21, 2012 at 12:54 pm

      Val: On Barbara Hubbard see my reply #3 right at the start of this thread. Read the articles I linked there.

      You are uncharitably and ideologically misreading her message as have others with a conservative narrow-minded and tenuous understanding of the Catholic faith.

      Cdl Levada personally approved Barbara Hubbard as LCWR speaker. The boys in Rome really do have difficulty getting their act together at times, don’t they :)

      God Bless

    115. bamac August 21, 2012 at 1:06 pm

      Chris,

      Where do you see it said clearly that Cardinal Levada personally approved of Barbara Hubbard as speaker?

      Are you saying that in your opinion Barbara Hubbards speach and ideas are in accord with Catholic Faith? really? Do you therefore understand all her gobledigook?
      shalom

    116. Chris Sullivan August 21, 2012 at 1:40 pm

      Cdl Levada himself said it !

      One can hardly criticise the LCWR for inviting Hubbard when the head of the SCDF himself approved her speaking to the LCWR !

      Vatican II taught that all genuine religion contains some truth within it. That would be true of the so called “new age” movement, which has significant overlap with Christian faith while also many points of difference.

      No one is saying that Barbara Hubbard has an adequate grasp of the Catholic faith.

      The Vatican also frequently invites speakers from other faiths and other points of view. That doesn’t mean that the Vatican is a bunch of heretics – it simply means that they are open minded and are implementing what Vatican II taught.

      Ditto the LCWR.

      God Bless

      Folks who read this thread: this is what Cardinal Levada actually said about it in an interview:

      Speaking of Barbara Marx Hubbard, LCWR officials have said they went ahead with their assembly in August because you gave them permission to do so. Is that accurate?

      Yes, mea culpa! At the time, I hadn’t been aware of who was being invited to speak or to get an award. I appreciated their concern that everything was already in place, and I said that’s fine, we’re OK with that. We haven’t asked them to do an about-face. I feel comfortable in saying, however, that I wish they hadn’t made these choices.

      By that, you mean the choice to invite Hubbard?

      Yes, and also to give an award to Sr. Sandra Schneiders for a view of religious life which has nothing to do with the teachings of the Second Vatican Council or the post-conciliar church.

      For the record, let me say again this is not about a criticism of the sisters. No sister will lose her job in teaching or charitable work or hospital work as a result of this assessment, as far as I know. … This is about questions of doctrine, in response to God’s revelation, and church tradition from the time of the apostles. We take that seriously. I’ve been doing this work for seven years, and I do it willingly, because I believe in it. It’s not easy in a secular society like ours in the States, or in Europe for that matter.

      It can be found here:

      http://ncronline.org/blogs/all-things-catholic/exclusive-interview-levada-talks-lcwr-criticism-states

      - Marty