First off, thank you to all of those who commented on my post last week. It really helped me realise that I was viewing the resignation of Pope Benedict XVI through secular eyes rather than spiritual ones. I read a great quote from the man himself this morning: “If we take the Lord’s hand and let ourselves be guided by him, the path we take will be right and good.”
Another quote I read this week that’s got me thinking is this one from Tim Stanley, from this article in the Telegraph: “In Catholicism there is no Right or Left but only truth and error.”
What do you think?
One of the amazing things about attending Hearts Aflame this summer was that I really got to see the full breadth of our faith. From Mass in the Extraordinary Rite, to praise and worship with guitars and drums, from praying the Rosary to being prayed over with hands – there was something for everyone. And the truly great thing was that everyone had to attend everything. Even if praise and worship wasn’t your bag, you still had to attend and show respect for this aspect of our faith. And this rule applied to the attending priests and religious also. During praise and worhsip you may not be one of the people at the front, jumping up and down with your hands in the air, but you could sit respectfully at the back. It was a true celebration of the ‘right’ and ‘left’ of our Church, with respect for all.
And the organisers made sure that it was all legitimate. Everything was planned with a priest on board and by checking things out with Church teaching. So surely this then goes to show that there is a more conservative side to our Church and a more liberal side and that both, as long as they operate within Church laws and teachings are a legitimate celebration of our faith.
What do you think?
I always thought conservative was the expression used by the liberals to describe those who adhered faithfully to the teachings of the Roman rite of the Catholic Church and its many other rites as opposed to those who want the church to allow remarriage and communion to all and sundry etc and think abortion is okay and want the church to “modernise” and be more relevant to people – and in general dictate what laws should be followed and what should now be discarded as out of date.
I understood Mass in the Extrordinary Rite and Praise and Worship were optional at Hearts – is that not so?
Hi Sienna,
The Traditional Mass at Hearts Aflame is ‘optional’ – it is not the ‘scheduled’ Mass of the day. It occurs at a different time to the OF Masses during the week. There is, naturally, an OF Mass at the same time as all other Masses.
Praise and Worship [sic] is attached to each night session (these are compulsory), and is used during the ‘down time’ of those sessions (e.g. to open each session, during confession or prayer ‘ministry’ [sic] etc).
Sienna, I agree that terms such as ‘conservative’ and ‘liberal’ aren’t helpful in this regard. It is a strange business to use the Traditional Mass as an example of an ‘extreme’.
Yes, I agree with that statement – there is no left and right but only truth or error. Also conservative and liberal or progressive are political terms, as is left and right. I think being called conservative in secular speak is to be seen to be dragging the chain, not with the times and setting about with ideas that actually limit peoples freedom. Progressives on the other hand are totally with it and break down barriers rather than creating them. In Vatican II interpretations progressives are in the aggorniamento mode and conservatives are wanting ressourcement.
I think the left/right or /conservative/progressive is always in favour of the left or the progressives.
Truth and error is the ‘nail on the head’. I tend to correct people using left/right or conservative/progressive by changing it to orthodox and unorthodox. Then is shows it for what it is – a departure from orthodoxy.
There aren’t numerous coherent complementary theologies which one can shop from and all be true. There is one faith and one Jesus. Either the Catholic Church has true Revelation and what she teaches in matters of faith are absolutely true…or we may as well give up. To stay would be mere sentimentalism for a prefered theology but not one definitively true.
FXD – where have you been – so good to hear from you and thanks for your post
Benedicta,
I too prefer othodox and unothodox they certainly explain it much more for what they are.
FXD … as Sienna said … it is indeed good to hear from you … you have been missed by many of us ,
Shalom,
Mrs Mac.
I’ll add that I don’t think conservative and liberal are the best labels. Whilst there is one church there are many different charisms and expressions of spirituality.
If my priest started faith healing and speaking in tounges I might just be at another parish on Sunday. Or if he started preaching to the animals.
But more seriously, you listen to a priest of Opus Dei talk, then listen to a priest of the order of St John. It is different.
There is unorthodoxy, but even within orthodoxy there are still charisms. I would almost try to draw an analogy with degrees at university. You can have a BA, BSC, LLB, or BCom and still have a degree. But each degree will teach you to think and argue differently. You could be a mystical marian, or a fransican, or a supporter of the FSPX but you are still orthodox even if you think the others are downright weird.
I happened to suggest Hearts Aflame to some good young Catholic adults that I know but was told they wouldn’t attend because it was “too charismatic”. Now that I hear the “praise and worship” sessions at Hearts Aflame are compulsory I understand why they wouldn’t attend. “Praise and worship” has its roots in Protestantism and it certainly seems wrong to me that it is being foisted on young Catholics at Hearts Aflame. Although perhaps it’s not so surprising really when I think of how praise and worship music has been foisted on us at Mass since the Charismatic movement was brought into the Church by disaffected priests in the United States in the 1960s. The charismatic movement takes its origins from the so-called “Shaking Quakers” (formed in England in 1747). They were called that because “of the ecstatic nature of their worship services”.
Unfortunately a lot of Catholic Charismatics whom I know do not believe in an ordained priesthood but rather think that priesthood should arise from among the congregation of worshippers – something being pushed in Holland at the moment. So there are question marks over the “praise and worship” movement, and with the large numbers of people no longer attending Mass the “praise and worship” music has been cited as the reason for non-attendance in many cases and many view it as “worship of self”.
Many Catholic Charismatics go to the Assembly of God, and yet I have friends who are involved in the AOG in Australia and many of their speakers talk against the Church and describe her as “The Whore of Babylon” and the Holy Father as the Anti-Christ. Read the Late Great Planet Earth to get the flavour of it.
There is a good article on the New Liturgical movement that sums up the argument against Praise and Worship music well:
“…
I continually return to a point made by Cardinal Ratzinger in The Spirit of the Liturgy. From the book of Exodus, in the narrative when the Israelites were wandering in the desert, we learn of an incident in which Moses was delayed in coming down from the mountain. Aaron encouraged them to give up their jewelry so that they could make an object of worship out of their own possessions. Aaron melted it down and mode a golden calf. They bowed down and worshipped it. They proclaimed a feast and burned offerings to the calf. Scripture tells us that the people were very happy with this new religion. After their pseudo-liturgy, one in which they had really been worshipping a god made from their own offerings, they sat down to eat and drink. Then they rose to play.
Here is a lesson in the dangers of believing that just because our worship of God is made of our own things, and just because it makes us happy, this is not enough to assure that we are actually doing what is right and embracing truth. What we are doing might not be Christianity at all. It might be a religion of our own invention.
…
So we can see that the case of “praise and worship” music is based partly on profound error and partly on a truth that is taken too far at the expense of other truth. The best way to displace it is through education and demonstration, and this requires a greater degree of familiarity with the uniqueness of the liturgical project itself, which is bound up with a belief that ultimate meaning can only be found outside the confines of time and place.”
http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2008/12/praise-and-worship-music-in-church.html
T
perhaps the truth is that someone will always find an excuse to dislike something they don’t want to do.
The Hearts team have to walk a fine line and I understood that it had its roots in the Charismatic Movement to start with? If so they have certainly shown the authenticity of this movement over time. From what I have seen in the young people that attend is that Hearts leads Catholics into a deeper Catholic Faith and it is these fruits that we should judge?
A wise religious once told me that it was an indication of the maturity of the Catholic as to whether they were able to be comfortable in the different expressions or ‘flavors’ of the Catholic Faith. The Catholic Church is not denominational and we cant pick and choose but we have to be open to the fullness of truth.
Charismatic Catholics that don’t believe in the ordained priesthood are simply not Catholic and I think there is a danger for more traditional Catholics to make the same mistake and right off the charismatic movement because if it is an authentic movement of the Holy Spirit then who are we to deny it?
Pray for the Church!
DV, this idea of it being a sign of maturity to be able to be accepting of the different flavours in the Catholic Church is a common theme that you hear from many post vat II religious and that is why we are in the mess we are in at the moment. Many of these religious have matured their way out of the Catholic Faith all together because they are accepting of anything. Where does it stop? I don’t doubt that many of these young people are good faithful young people, but they should not have praise and worship foisted on them. If it was a Charismatic Movement to begin with, then mainstream Catholics would be better to keep away from it and develop their own authentic Catholic movement, based solely on the Mass, confession and the sacraments. Otherwise you draw them into a movement that has its origins from outside the Church. Sorry to pour cold water on you, but many faithful Catholics do not believe that any authentic movement of the spirit could have its origins outside the Church full stop. It has to be remembered that the Albigensian movement which practised baptism in the spirit and talking in tongues was declared a heresy by the Church. There is no official position on the Charismatic Movement in the Church but you only have to look at the cardinals who do promote it to be wary of it. You could hardly consider them orthodox.
The highest form of worship in the Catholic Church is the Mass. Is it compulsory to attend daily Mass at Hearts Aflame? I doubt it.
The Albigensian movement was declared a heresy because they believed in two gods – one good and one evil, not because they practiced baptism in the spirit and talking in tongues. Indeed, since we Catholics are all baptised in the spirit and talking in tongues is an authentic charism (see St Paul), it would have been impossible for the Catholic Church to repudiate such doctrines.
Teresina, your righteous – and appropriate – indignation at excesses and heresies should not be allowed you to lead you into the error of seeing heresy where there is none, or of rejecting a good work, and (by implication) the people who are involved in it.
I’m certain that attendance at daily Mass is required at Hearts Aflame. Indeed, MaryandMartha says above “And the truly great thing was that everyone had to attend everything. ”
Here’s how the Hearts Aflame website describes the 10 days:
Our Holy Father’s talk to the clergy of Rome answered a question or two that had been puzzling this old heart and mind of mine for some time … It is rather long but well worth the read.
http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/english-translation-of-popes-discourse-to-rome-clergy/#ixzz2LOSmQ0X9
The last two paragraphs were of real interest to me and, I am sure, to others.
Shalom Mrs Mac.
Has anone seen or read the book ” Rebuilding Catholic Culture ” by Ryan Topping ?
It sounds a worthwhile book.
Hopefully, Mrs Mac
Re: Post Number 6 John Whyte
“If my priest started faith healing and speaking in tounges I might just be at another parish on Sunday”.
Well John, you might be very surprised in deed to discover just how many of the people you offer Mass with do have the gift of tongues and do lay hands on the sick and pray for their healing. It is not “uncatholic”. Fr John Rea SM has the gift of healing.
But like you I draw the line at animals!!
Hi Sienna and Bamac,
I still drop in from time to time to read being frank a bit. Thanks for your kind words.
Dominican,
I can understand and agree with priests like Fr John Rea SM laying his hands on someone but find myself uncomfortable when a lay person does so . I belong to the Benedictine Oblates and we do pray for one another , as do good people in my parish but in no way do we lay hands on one anoter.
Some years ago I went to a Life in The Spirit seminar during which a group of people came around me and all layed their hands on me … some prayed over me in tongues … maybe their sincere prayers were answered and God showed me that that was not for me dispite being told that if I REALLY wanted to grow close to Our Blessed Lord then I would do so more surely by becoming part of their regular prayer group.
In no way am I doubting their individual faith and love for God, but I felt that what they shared with me was more reliant on emotional feelings … it was all so very different from anything I had experienced in all my many years in any of the parishes I had been part of….. I can well understand how your friends shied away from it …. from all that I have heard about Hearts Aflame from some who have been there,some mor than once, the praise and worship evenings had not been of any importance to them , they felt that everything else during those days had drawn them deeper into a deeper love for God and His Holy Church .
God Bless those who organize HA for young ones, those who share their faith and knowledge with them ,and those who take part …. they are all in my prayers every year for what my prayers are worth.
shalom,
Mrs Mac
Dominican re #13,
I may not have been been the most clear sorry. I was trying to reference charisms that whilst legitimate I myself find exceptionally weird. Tounges and St Francis’s animal preaching were the two that sprung to mind.
Good, Holy, but I’m quite convinced not for me.
It ought to be noted that the charismatic gifts (e.g. tongues) do not mean that those who hold them are made holier by that.
They are for the building up of the Body of Christ, not for the personal sanctification of he who holds that gift. For example, I see little point in someone praying in tongues if there is no-one there to interpret it.
Marty,
The one time I was at that Praise and Worship evening ,when one person spoke to us all in tongues someone else would speak up and claim to be able to interpret what had just been said… we were told that it was a prophesy about something that was going to come about for someoe … am afraid that I couldn’t hide a small smile for it reminded me of a fortune teller ( right or wrong of me , I wondered if God had a smile too)
A friend of mine who was a regular at their prayer groups told me that she was wondering why God was unhappy with her as as much as she prayed to God for the gift of tongues that had been given to nearly all the group , she was sure that the faut lay with her. As my friend was musical and played for all their songs I assured her that that was a gift God had indeed given her and that when she played she was praising God big time if she played it for him and not just for the group.
Not for me either John.
Mrs Mac
Dear Marty and Barmac
I received the gift of tongues on Easter Sunday morning some years ago now – alone in my bedroom while contemplating the resurrection. Nothing emotional about it – totally in control.
I pray in tongues from time to time – especially during intercessory prayer when I am unsure how to pray to pray for the person who has asked for my prayers. I invite the assistance of the Holy Spirit who lends weight to my petition and inspires my worship.
From the opening prayer of Pentecost Sunday – Year B
“Loosen our tongues to sing your praise in words beyond the power of speech…….
I don’t go to praise and worship evenings – I do pray for healing if asked and I do place a hand on the person but not in imitation of the laying on of hands as our priests might do. I am uncomfortable with charismatic praise and worship per se. I well remember being many years ago at a parish mission praise and worship – a priest was there and many people were getting tingly hands and signs of gifts. Nothing happened to me or my friend and she is the most prayerful spirit filled and holy person I know.
For me it will always the Mass, the Mass, the Mass.
Joyful Papist, the point about the Albigensians being baptised in the spirit and talking in tongues proves that someone can consider themself Catholic, talk in tongues, baptise in the spirit, and still be a heretic. Speaking in tongues and baptism in the spirt, so called, are guarantees of nothing and many in the Church prefer not to be involved with a movement that has its origins from outside the Church.
As regards compulsion, I refer you to Marty’s article in July 2011 Protestatholic where it was it stated that Praise and Worship sessions were compulsory at Hearts Aflame but Adoration was not.
http://www.beingfrank.co.nz/protestatholic-charismatics
The Mass is the highest form of worship in the Church – can someone confirm that it compulsory to attend daily Mass at Hearts Aflame, just as it is compulsory to attend the Praise and Worship sessions, and if not why not?
If some Catholics like the Charismatic movement, well and good, but it shouldn’t be foisted on those who have no interest in it and find it suspect. After all, talking in unknown tongues is also a sign of diabolical possession. What proof have you it is the Holy Spirit and not the devil?
And St Paul said:
Dominican, I hadn’t read your post 20 before posting at 21. Let me say that if you were given the gift of tongues in private at Easter then that is something between you and God. I believe God can give charismatic gifts to whom He wills and I’m sure that individuals leading good holy lives receive those gifts – I just don’t believe the widespread phenomenon in the Protestant and Catholic Church where every man and his dog claims to receive such gifts.
Like Mrs Mac I have been prayed over and like Mrs Mac felt uncomfortable with the whole thing. This person (a Catholic) spoke an unintelligble language for well over 10 minutes and I have no doubt that he was indeed possessed by a spirit. I felt totally uncomfortable about it and prayed to Our Lady for protection throughout. If it was truly of the Holy Spirit I doubt I would have felt so uncomfortable with the whole thing.
Another thing I remember reading around the time that the Charismatic movement was brought into the Church that two Catholic priests went down to a protestant pentecostal group. They were prayed over and were slain in the spirit and the protestants thought it was wonderful to see these two priests lying on the stage with their limbs convulsing.
There are well documented cases of excess such as the following:
“I had been to the “Toronto Blessing” church about two years ago, as Catholic
Family News printed as expose on this new movement written by Silvia
MacAhern, and I wanted to see the “worship service” for myself before going
to press. The “Toronto Blessing” is a high-charged Protestant sect that
could be called “Charismatic to the Tenth Power”. They believe the Holy
Ghost manifests Himself not only in indistinguishable tongues and body
gyrations (as was the case with the Pittsburgh “Catholic Pentecostals”) but
also with screams, shrieks, rolling on the floor, hysterical laughter,
barking like dogs and oinking like pigs.
This “Toronto Blessing” received some favorable comment at the June, 1997
Charismatic Conference. “Catholic” Charismatic pioneer Kevin Ranaghan, in
his opening address, spoke of the “Toronto Blessing” as a true movement of
the Holy Spirit. In so saying, this “anointed preacher”, as they call each
other, told 7,500 Catholics in the audience that barking like dogs and
oinking like pigs is a true manifestation of the Holy Spirit.
None of the other speakers voiced any disagreement with this radical
teaching from the podium. In fact, by the end of the weekend I would witness
priests and bishop(s) doing boogie-woogie dances on stage, I would endure
rock and roll rhythms passed off as “sacred music”, I would hear glowing
prayers of praise for Protestant religions, and I would marvel in dismay at
Steubenville’s Scott Hahn attempting to defend Pentecostalism against
bothersome “traditionalist” critics. But we’ll come to all this later.”
http://www.gloria.tv/?media=317466
Teresina @ 21,
I’ve read Marty’s link where you claim “As regards compulsion, I refer you to Marty’s article in July 2011 Protestatholic where it was it stated that Praise and Worship sessions were compulsory at Hearts Aflame but Adoration was not.”
Marty actually says the opposite he says that “Thank God for the wisdom of (for example) Hearts Aflame in this regard, which relegates Praise and Worship [sic] style music to its proper place.”
Comment number 4 says “Also interesting links:
http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/#3655906697264955112
http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/#2903857982564067930
Marty…good to hear about Hearts Aflame. I thought i had read earlier on this blog that Praise and Worship sessions were compulsory for participants but Adoration was not.”
Which is hardly what you claim.
Also when I went to Hearts Aflame there were 2 evening adoration sessions that were compulsory (as were the evenings of praise and worship). There was however optional adoration from 6->6.30am followed by compulsory divine office and on new years eve option adoration from 10pm til 6am.
John Whyte, thanks for clarifying that. Sorry I didn’t word it clearly enough, but nevertheless, I and others are pointing out that praise and worship is compulsory. How can making praise and worship compulsory at Hearts Aflame be relegating it to its proper place? It would seem to be elevating it in fact. Young people who don’t wish to participate in praise and worship should not be coerced into it. Catholics should not be forced into something they don’t feel comfortable with.
MaryandMartha says: “During praise and worhsip you may not be one of the people at the front, jumping up and down with your hands in the air, but you could sit respectfully at the back.”
Is that being coerced into doing something they don’t feel comfortable with?
The jumping up and down with hands in the air is not for me, I have to say.
I had a brief flirtation with the Charismatic movement in my teenage years, and it was enough to send me back to my Anglican roots with a renewed appreciation for order and liturgy. (I’m an adult convert – largely because the Church offers me Christ in Holy Eucharist.)
But my experience of Catholic charismatics is quite different to Teresina’s – my friends who are part of the Catholic charismatic movement are entirely orthodox in their theology, completely obedient to Church norms regarding liturgy, and very devout in their prayer.
Teresina, Praise and worship is compulsory because pretty much everything between 6:30am and 9pm at Hearts is compulsory.
Its in its proper place because it is in the hall, (not the chapel) and it comes nowhere close to being the ‘drug’ it seems to be in penticostal churches.
Your quoted article from the new liturgical movement talks about praise and worship inside the mass. And your argument that it developed inside the quaker movement and thus tainted is exactly the same logic as “The babaloyians worshiped a woman who was mother of a God, and this is where Marian idolatry comes from.” Similarity is not shown as a root cause.
So please start by demonstrating how praise and worship (outside mass) is protestant, and how it is any different to say Handel’s Messiah where contempory music is used to sing in a secular setting about the divine.
Hi all, great debate… I love it! That’s what’s awesome about Being Frank, it makes you take a deeper look at what is true Church teaching and how it fits into your life.
Just to confirm, as to the compulsory nature of things at Hearts Aflame… Mass is celebrated every day and is absolutely compulsory, as are the the prayers of the Church. After a few days of rising for 7am morning prayer some of the younger members of the Hearts community tried skipping morning prayers for a sleep-in, but everyone was constantly reminded that the prayers of the Church were compulsory, that we attend them as a community and that, as a community of Catholics it is how we start and finish each day.
Here’s a sample timetable of a typical Hearts day…
6am Adoration (Optional)
7am Morning Prayer (compulsory)
7.30am Breakfast
9am Lecture (compulsory – you choose the lecture you want to attend)
11am Mass (compulsory)
12noon Small Group Time (compulsory)
12.30pm Lunch
2pm Lecture (compulsory – you choose the lecture you want to attend)
3.30pm Optional Workshop eg; Divine Mercy Chaplet, Lectico Divina – otherwise freetime
5pm Evening Prayer (compulsory)
6pm Dinner
7.30pm Praise and Worship/Confession/Healing (Compulsory)
9pm Night Prayer (Compulsory)
9.30pm Adoration (Optional)
The Praise and Worship sessions were pretty tame compared to what some of you are describing. There would be a song or two followed by a speaker – usually some kind of witnessing, for example one night there was a guy who had been a protestant and is getting ready to enter the Catholic Church at Easter who told the story of his conversion. Then the band would return and there would be more music while people moved to the back of the hall to go to confession or to ask people to pray for them. I never saw anyone talking in tongues or anyone lying on the ground ‘slain in the spirit’, but I certainly saw people with their hands in the air and really getting into the whole charismatic side of things.
I always enjoyed the music – very talented musicians and moving words but I’d usually stay for about 30 minutes then I’d move over to the chapel where there was Adoration happening before night prayers. This seemed to be OK with the organisers, as long as you weren’t escaping off to jump on the trampoline or noisily talk with your mates outside the hall or chapel.
I guess I’m a fairly middle of the road Catholic, I don’t consider myself conservative or liberal, but there was only one time during the whole 10 days that I felt uncomfortable and that was to do with a couple who spoke about and ran a healing session. They said things like, “God has given us some words… someone in this room is having back trouble, someone is suffering from headaches, there’s someone who is having trouble with their eyes” etc. Of course by the time they had finished they’d named pretty much every ailment known to humankind. And then those people that felt those ‘words’ were for them could move to the back of the hall and be prayed over for healing. That made me a little uncomfortable. But I checked it out with a priest who was there (an ULTRA conservative priest) and his words were, “It’s fine… it’s not my cup of tea but it’s fine.”
“But I checked it out with a priest who was there (an ULTRA conservative priest)”
Mary and Martha
I wonder whether the priest you describe as above would accept that. Perhaps you meant to say a priest who loves the church and is faithful to its teachings and obedient to Rome? and please do tell what diocese does he belong to?
What has this priest done or not done to warrant being described as ULTRA conservative?
Maryandmartha,
And then those people that felt those ‘words’ were for them could move to the back of the hall and be prayed over for healing. That made me a little uncomfortable. But I checked it out with a priest who was there (an ULTRA conservative priest) and his words were, “It’s fine… it’s not my cup of tea but it’s fine.”
Maybe I am wrong but i feel this laying on of hands is somewhat like the lay in a way taking on the role of priests.
I too wonder what you mean by describing that priest ultra conservative Do you mean that he is orthodox, true to the magisterium,obedient to Rome as don asked?
shalom
Martha and Mary, thanks for clarifying. That puts things a bit more into perspective.
As regards the laying on of hands that is the preserve of the priesthood not the lay people:
“Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord”. James 5:14
I don’t think any ultra conservative priest would find it acceptable for lay people to be laying on hands – unless he has fallen into this form of tolerance that seems to be pervading a lot in the Church these days, a sort of live and let live mentality. I know several priests who won’t have a bar of it. They are the ultra conservatives and they pray the Novus Ordo Mass.
John Whyte, the charismatic movement came into the Catholic Church from the Protestant Pentecostal movement – can you tell me what you think is Catholic about the charismatic movement in the light of the tradition of the church?
Here is what Archbishop Ranjith said of Praise and worship in the Mass:
“The so-called “Praise and Worship” elements are not allowed during the entire rite of the Mass. Inordinate and loud music, clapping, long interventions and gestures which disturb the sobriety of the celebration are not permitted. It is very important that we understand the religious cultural sensibility of the Sri Lankan people. Majority around us are Buddhists whose culture of worship is thoroughly sober; and Muslims and Hindus too do not create commotion in their worship. In addition, there is a strong opposition to the Fundamentalist Christian sects in this country, and we as Catholics, have been striving to explain that Catholics are different from these sects. However, some of these so-called praise and worship exercises seem to resemble more of the Fundamentalist religious exercises than those of the Roman Catholics.
He says these “praise and worship exercises seem to resemble more of the Fundamentalist relibious exercises than those of the Roman Catholics“.
Well, without identifying the priest (so I won’t mention the diocese he’s from) he’s a priest who is a stickler for the rules and who is a big fan of all things Latin. By ‘conservative’ I think you’re right (excuse the pun!), I meant he is a priest loyal to Rome and the laws, teachings and traditions of the magisterium, ie: the kind of priest we all wish we had at our own parishes.
And I must add that when he said, “it’s fine, it’s not my cup if tea but it’s fine,” it was said with a long sigh.
MaryandMartha,
Thank you for all you have shared. Please God that we will have more good priests like the one you mentioned.
This link is not about H A but it does talk about the strong faith of a number of young men in different parts of the world.
http://www.churchmilitant.tv/daily/?today=2013-02-21
Mrs Mac
John Whyte, here is a priest who doesn’t mince his words and gives reasons why Praise and Worship should not be part of Catholic spirituality where young people are concerned.
Fr. Allan J. McDonald
“WORSHIP AND PRAISE MUSIC AND CATHOLIC SPIRITUAL IDENTITY
At this morning’s consistory, the Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI exclaimed in his homily some musical direction for the Church in recovering her Catholic universality and unity:
“Situated within the context and the perspective of the Church’s unity and universality is the College of Cardinals: it presents a variety of faces, because it expresses the face of the universal Church. In this Consistory, I want to highlight in particular the fact that the Church is the Church of all peoples, and so she speaks in the various cultures of the different continents. She is the Church of Pentecost: amid the polyphony of the various voices, she raises a single harmonious song to the living God”.
All you need to do is listen to the first song (you will need to go on to the link to see what he is referring to) and tell me how Catholic it is from the spiritual point of view and that here the Church is not raising a “a single harmonious song to the living God”:
This could well be a Catholic Mass for youth, but fortunately this one is Lutheran which would cause even Martin Luther to turn in his grave! Let’s keep this crap in Protestant Churches and cleanse the Catholic temple of anything that resembles this tripe!
Vincent Ambrosetti gave our clergy conference this past year. He lamented the use of Worship and Praise music by Catholics especially at Mass because what it does is to prepare young people to leave the Catholic Church and join the non-denominational Protestant communities that use this style of music and style of worship exclusively. I tend to agree with him–this stuff has nothing to do with our Catholic patrimony in terms of worship or music. It is very sad, but used to get young people into our parish and eventually out of them into the non-denominationals.
…
What will it take for the Pope and each bishop in every diocese to mandate Gregorian Chant once again as the norm for the Sung Mass whether in Latin or the vernacular. Do we need more deconstruction of the Catholic Mass’s spirituality and musical identity as tripe like what is in the video above is foisted on young people who will then take it and leave for the place where it properly belongs, non-denominational Protestant Churches?”
http://southernorderspage.blogspot.co.nz/2012/11/worship-and-praise-music-and-catholic.html
Teresina,
You seem to have an axe to grind and it seems like you’ve failed to read my post. I said ” please start by demonstrating how praise and worship (outside mass) is protestant”
You’ve gone on a bit of a rant about how it is inappropriate for mass, which is straw man. Nobody here is arguing its appropriateness for mass.
And then you’ve gone “can you tell me what you think is Catholic about the charismatic movement in the light of the tradition of the church?” Yet that’s not what I’ve posited.
I fail to see any evidence that Praise and Worship finds its root cause in the charismatic movement. I think rather Praise and Worship is drawing on contemporary music styles to praise God, and when done outside of a liturgical setting is appropriate. So when you (@7) said ““Praise and worship” has its roots in Protestantism” I feel you ought to make that arguement.
Mary & Martha,
I think the big sigh and your description gives it away. Ultra-Orthodox is a description and if its who I think it is I think he’d agree with it.
When I went to Hearts Aflame I was close with Fr Bernal the Opus Dei Priest situated in Hamilton. There was a healing session which given my background I found more than a little strange. Although I won’t doubt that I know of one miracle cure to come out of it. In which there was a couple and also a nun, who was speaking French.
Anyway I was talking with Fr Bernal when a young gentleman who was obviously very concerned about this going to happen (it was published in advance and he was trying to get Fr Bernal who was going to give a talk beforehand to say something). He was referencing the laying on of hands, and saying how persons shouldn’t be lead to believe that this a natural role for a lay person. And how blessings should be done by priests.
Fr Bernal in his Spainish accent said “It’s not prohibited. If people want to receive it, it is their decision.” He refused to budge from this point.
Hi Mary and Martha,
I too am uncomfortable with the term ultra-conservative.
What do you mean by it, and by the (later) phrase ‘a stickler for the rules’? What rules? Do you refer to church teaching, liturgical norms, or what? And does being a ‘stickler’ for the rules (whatever that means), by necessity make him conservative, or ultra-conservative?
Or do you mean that he is ultra-conservative because he is a ‘big fan of all things Latin’?
If so, it might pay to reflect upon your phraseology.
Post 32
By ‘conservative’ I think you’re right (excuse the pun!), I meant he is a priest loyal to Rome and the laws, teachings and traditions of the magisterium, ie: the kind of priest we all wish we had at our own parishes.
So ULRA CONSERVATIVE means loyal to Rome and the laws, teachings and traditions of the magisterium. Those who use the phrase ‘ULTRA conservative” for the most part do so to belittle, defame and denigrate.
So what do we call the priests who feel to be truly “pastoral” we must make our own rules in New Zealand and justify their actions with “we are a long way from Rome”.
I would venture to suggest we have never been closer! in this cyberspace age and yet so many either deliberately or through ignorance are working to take us away.
But it’s all been done before – it was called the protestant rebellion of the 16th Century.
If we believe that all authority was given to St Peter – if we believe that our Pope is the successor of St Peter then we have the right to demand that every single one of our priests is ULTRA conservative.
John Whyte, I have already explained why praise and worship sessions are Protestant and part of the Charismatic Movement. Praise and worship first arose within the Protestant Pentecostal movement and came into the Catholic Church via Catholic priests and laypeople attending the Protestant Pentecostal church and being slain in the spirit. It was never a spontaneous development in the Church, and many good priests warn against the movement, such as the priest I have already quoted, who say it encourages young Catholics to leave the Church.
I do not know if you are being deliberately obtuse or if you need an axe to cut your way through all the trees so you can finally see the wood, but if you bother to do a little research you can readily find out information for yourself. Such as:
Pentecostalism encourages extraordinary phenomena such as “prophesying” and “talking in tongues.” The great mystical writer and Doctor of the Church, St. John of the Cross, warned that souls must flee from seeking any such manifestations. What this great Saint said of private revelations equally applies to all such phenomena: “Wherein the devil habitually meddles so freely [in extraordinary phenomenon] that I believe it impossible for a man not to be deceived by them, unless he strive to reject them, such an appearance of truth and security does the Devil give them.
Msgr. Knox wrote that “to speak in tongues you had never learned was, and is, a recognized symptom in cases of alleged diabolic possession.”
Where does the Church say that laying on of hands by lay people is permitted when a priest is present? The Congregation for Divine Worship has said that laying on of hands by lay people distributing communion is not permitted because of the confusion of roles with the priest So surely laying on of hands when a priest is present, such as in the case of Fr Bernal who was present, must surely cause confusion when we have the sacrament of anointing of the sick?
I am also surprised to learn there are so many sick young people that Hearts Aflame requires a nightly healing service. Perhaps Fr Bernal could have conducted the anointing of the sick to cater for the obvious need?
“In 2008, the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments received a letter asking precisely this question. The congregation responded in a private reply with five observations on why this practice is not permitted.
Laying on of hands discouraged
[3] The third observation addresses the practice in some places where the EMHC lays hands on a member of the congregation as a sign of blessing. The private reply states that this practice “is to be explicitly discouraged” because the laying on of hands has its own “sacramental significance” which is inappropriate here. The Catechism notes that since this specific sign commonly accompanies the administration of sacraments (e.g. Confirmation) and the succession of the apostles, the laying on of hands must not be used here.”
http://wdtprs.com/blog/2011/09/d-of-madisons-newspapers-explanation-of-emhcs-giving-blessings-as-if-they-were-priests/
For all the concerns expressed by good Catholic priests and by some of the young people attending Hearts Aflame, such as the young man mentioned by John Whyte, Hearts Aflame should not make attendance at praise and worship sessions and/or healing sessions compulsory, because they are a personal choice and not something mandated by the Church.
There is an excellent sermon on Pentecost by Fr. Chad Ripperger, FSSP, PhD (Fraternity of St Peter). Fr. Ripperger was professor of Dogmatic and Moral Theology and Philosophy at Our Lady of Guadalupe Seminary in Denton, Nebraska. His sermon deals with the topics discussed here.
http://www.sensustraditionis.org/webaudio/Sermons/KC/Disk%201/Pentecost.mp3
You’ve done no such thing. All of your warnings til your previous post have been about praise and worship during mass. And then you go on to talk about Penticostalism and its dangers. Again you are wandering into straw men again. You’ve made a brief allegation about priests being slain in the spirit with no references.
Your next argument is that protestants do praise and worship. I’ll quote from my # 26 ““The babaloyians worshiped a woman who was mother of a God, and this is where Marian idolatry comes from.” ”
Its not dense that I ask you to come back and actually argue your point. Praise and Worship is singing. When done outside of mass it seems to be a perfectly acceptable thing.
Question – has the gift of tongues continued since Pentecost?
Are you just spraying around information implying that “talking in tongues is wrong” without actually stating your case one way or the other?
Also could you give some context to that Knox quote please. What was he talking about at the time? Was he talking about glossolalia, or was he talking about how cases of possession are identified.
Well, what about singing to God using Guns and Roses songs? Or Metalica style music? Or Rap gang music?
Would it be ok to praise God with these?
There is more to it than “singing outside Mass” therefore its “perfectly acceptable”.
“What do the words say?”, is a question I would ask.
“What type of music is it”, is another.
We should discern these things, according to spiritual criteria, informed by the wisdom of the Church.
Again:
Where has anyone said that there was a nightly healing service? You are misstating what happened when I was there, which was one healing service (at night).
Also this may come as a surprise but the sacrament of anointing of the sick requires as matter one who is gravely ill or in danger of death. It is not done primarily to gain healing but rather to assist the soul in preparing for death.
Maybe you have some post Vatican II ideas about this sacrament .
Also
Is just so completely wrong. The Catholic church is not a prescriptivist rule set.
If something is prohibited we are not to do it.
It something is mandated it must be done in the manner directed.
There is no exhaustive list of what the laity may or may not do. There are some lists (generally around the sacraments) but here there are no lists. I would suggest that in these cases the laity can do whatever they deem prudent and wise. A bit like how the laity engage in mental prayer, celebrate a family rosary, conduct a family pilgrimage, go to world youth day, attend a praise and worship concert, or pray with someone else.
Or are you really saying that going on a family pilgrimage is not allowed as there is no Church rule allowing it?
Jimmy G,
In all seriousness, please point us to some spiritual criteria about what is acceptable music.
I accept that all things have excesses but in cases of music and the arts I think a well formed conscience can pick out what is acceptable and what is good. But two guitars and some drums seem to be acceptable in the same way two slices of bread inter spaced with meat is generally acceptable.
Back to the Gift of Tongues
1 Corinthians Chapters 12 and Chapter 14
Seems to me the Christians of Corinth were Charismatic – or at least Paul wanted them to be.
John Whyte, for nightly healing service refer to post 27: “7.30pm Praise and Worship/Confession/Healing (Compulsory)”. I repeat that if there are so many sick young people that a nightly healing service is needed, they must be quite ill and then perhaps Fr Bernel could arrange anointing of the sick, which is a sacrament of the Church, rather than lay people borrowing from Protestant healing services and blurring the line between priest and layperson.
You obviously do not accept my reply that “praise and worship” arose in the Protestant Pentecostal movement – confirmed by the Catholic Charismatic Renewal websites – a search using the words “praise and worship” will give you a myriad of information. In fact when you do you will come across Protestant sites pleased that some Catholics have adopted their praise and worship. It was not a spontaneous practice that arose within the Church but copied from the Protestant model. If you know better then please enlighten us to when and how praise and worship developed in the Church?
“I would suggest that in these cases the laity can do whatever they deem prudent and wise”. But one person, at least didn’t think it was prudent and wise, so why should it be compulsory at Hearts Aflame? That is the sticking point.
John Whyte, post 42, talking in tongues has been evident in some Protestant denominations since Pentecost and then adopted by Catholics. Fr Ripperberger says, ” The last group historically to take the idea that one can pray for these gifts and go around speaking incoherently were the modernists whose heresy, of course, was condemned.”
If you or anybody else wants to talk in tongues then go ahead. You appear to be up for anything.
Teresina,
Because between 7.30pm and 9.00pm there is time for praise and worship, and confession, and a healing service every night. I’m 99% sure that there would have been only one healing session this year. M&M may correct me on that.
You’ve also missed or ignored my point that the sacrament of the anointing of the sick, is not for people with ailments but rather those in danger of death.
Also, and more importantly you’ve failed to produce any argument other than “look on the internet” that praise and worship music is protestant.
Yet across history it is common for composers and musicians to use secular styles to sing in a secular sense about Jesus. For example Bach’s Passion of St Matthew, Krzysztof Penderecki’s St Luke Passion, the Summa Passionis from the 15th century, the Opera Thais to give some examples I am familiar with.
Yet the protestants used secular orchestral (Handel’s Messiah being the most famous) and Operatic pieces too.
Why is praise and worship more protestant than the oratorios given Handel was a protestant?
Teresina,
And yet Catholics have been talking in tounges since, well, penticost, like in 30AD. Novatian references their use. And does Irenaeus in Against Heresies, Book 5 chapter 4 when he says
“In like manner we also do hear of many brethren in the Church, who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the benefit the hidden things of men, and declare the mysteries of God.”
And Augustine of Hippo on the 33rd Psalm says about this babbling of joy
“Behold, he giveth as it were the tune of thy song; seek not words as if thou couldest explain whereby God is pleased. Sing with jubilation: for this is to sing skilfully unto God, to sing with jubilation. What is it to sing with jubilation ? To be unable to understand, to express in words, what is sung in the heart.”
See also this link where it talks further about Augustines views on this whole talking in tounges without being able to understand.
And then St Padre Pio had the gift of tounges (along with everything else). And also St Hillary of Bingen (now a doctor of the church).
So you are correct when you quote Fr Ripperger that the moderists are the last group. But Catholics were the first
And they have done so across the ages.
Oh, and I’m still waiting on you to elaborate on that quote from Msgr Knox you threw out there, was he really talking about tounges or glossolalia?
Or was he simply going through the list in the roman ritual of exorcism detailing some of the many, many things, that can indicate possession?
Because unless you give out warnings when huge strength is indicated, or that a person guesses what you are going to tell them successfully, or they scratch their skin raw, or if they enter the room and the temperature drops then isn’t it a bit unfair to both Msgr Knox and the Holy Spirit to use the quote to demonize glossolalia?
I’d google it myself, wait I already did, and it just populated a lot of results of violent anti charismatic types all quoting the same quote, without a specific reference, or an elaboration. So some elaboration would be good. I’m sure you know where it comes from.
John Whyte,
“The Rite of Anointing tells us there is no need to wait until a person is at the point of death to receive the Sacrament. A careful judgment about the serious nature of the illness is sufficient. The Sacrament may be repeated if the sick person recovers after the anointing but becomes ill once again, or if, during the same illness, the person’s condition becomes more serious. A person should be anointed before surgery when a dangerous illness is the reason for the intervention (cf. Rite of Anointing, Introduction, nos. 8-10).”
If these young people are truly physically or mentally ill they should go to a priest for the sacrament.
As Fr Ray Blake says these charisma are fundamental rites of the Church, so in other words there is no reason for a priest, such as Fr Bernel, to sit idly by and allow young, inexperienced people to usurp the rites of the Church.
Mons Knox made the reference to speaking tongues can be a sign of possession in his book Enthusiasm, which deals with false cults of enthusiasm that have arisen over the centuries and been condemned by the Church.
Fr Ripperberger mentions a priest who was a linguist attending one of these sessions and recognised one of the languages spoken and they were actually praising the devil – no other mention of any other physical manifestation.
Fr Ray Blake
Before he ascended into Heaven the Lord said to His disciples,
“And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
In my name shall they cast out devils; DONE!
Whenever the Church says “go” devils flee they shall speak with new tongues;
DONE! We speak with new tongue of the redeemed, we speak to God in through His Son the Eternal Word!
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them;
DONE! The Church is in this sinful world but not of it
they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. DONE! Sinners are healed when hands are laid on them, those who sick to the point of death of the soul are raised to new life
It is a mistake to allow people to assume these things are the preserve of “charismatics” or Pentecostalist Ptrotestant sects, it is also a mistake and a distortion of scripture to read them in such terms. They fundamental to the Rites and life of the Catholic Church!
The Charismatic/Pentecostal miracle cult was only invented in the 1910s and absorbed into Catholicism in the 1970s!”
For a fuller explanation of how the Protestant Pentecostal Charismatic Movement came into the Catholic Church read the following article – a couple of excerpts below. So we have many good priests and lay people warning of this movement and those who have ears will listen. Everyone is free to choose for themselves unless they attend Hearts Aflame it seems where it is compulsory, which was my original complaint.
http://credo.stormloader.com/Doctrine/pentecon.htm
James Likoudis
IMPRIMATUR
September 11, 1973
Most Rev. Charles R. Koester
Vicar General of St. Louis
Today there are Catholic Pentecostals who insist there is a new outpouring of the Holy Spirit with all His charismatic gifts upon the Catholic Church. Interestingly, a similar claim was made 70 years ago by the founders of the modern Pentecostal sects.
The Jesuit scholar, Father John Hardon, has explained the origins of modern Pentecostalism:
“As a species of Protestant Christianity, Pentecostalism may be traced to the ministry of Edward Irving (1792-1834), pastor of a Presbyterian church in London. Irving had witnessed speaking in tongues and some cases of healing in Glasgow, Scotland. He reported back to his congregation in London that if only the people prayed earnestly, they, too, might be filled with the gifts of the Spirit. Soon after, some of his parishioners began to speak in strange tongues and prophesy …. By 1832 he had started his own congregation …. 2
His disciples, known as the Irvingites, were soon followed by Quakers, Shakers, and Mormons, and yet other sectarians, who similarly preached that external signs are an essential part of integral Christian belief and experience. In the United States sharp doctrinal divisions manifested themselves among the followers of John Wesley, the founder of Methodism. The latter, as Father Hardon notes:
“…had never been much concerned with creedal orthodoxy. Experience of conversion and an awareness of the Spirit had always been more prominent in Wesleyan thought.
…
FOOD FOR THOUGHT
“The Charismatic Renewal is interested in the Holy Spirit in a sense. But those I have talked to are not really all that interested in the Holy Spirit. But as to Who He is, and what He is, what His relation is to the Son, what His function is in the plan of God, they’ve never given a thought. Their primary concern is the stimulation they can get from it.”
— Famous lay theologian Frank Sheed
IS THERE AN EXPLOSION OF THE SUPERNATURAL TODAY?
“People who claim the gift of speaking in tongues, of causing healings, well — this is the case, if they claim such gifts, this would leave me rather perplexed and particularly make me fear that if the gifts were authentic, they might be lost if they are claimed. That is, I do remember that — in general — the Saints (and though one might quote St. Peter in Acts 3:1-12 in the contrary sense) who have these gifts, particularly of doing miracles, healings, etc., were rather wanting to hide these gifts, than to claim them. Now, this does not, of course, exhaust the problem, and so, I think you know well that in the world of today, there is not on the part of many a great interest in the mysteries of angels and devils. No, and you know also that a small minority of apostles of satanic cults are very fascinated. However, it seems to me that one cannot understand the Mysteries of the Church and various gifts without having recourse to the consideration of the holy angels in the Church and of the possible activities of devils against it.”
— French Catholic theologian Fr. Bertrand de Margerie, S.J.,
speaking to the Credo Chapter of C.U.F.
on-April 29, 1976.”
John Whyte, both St John Chrysostom and St Augustine believed the phenomenon of ‘speaking in tongues’ had died out by their time:
“This whole phenomenon [of speaking in tongues] is very obscure, but the obscurity is produced by our ignorance of the facts referred to and by their cessation, being such then as used to occur but now no longer take place. And why do they not happen now? Why look now, the cause too of the obscurity hath produced us again another question: namely, why did they then happen, and now do so no more? (Chrysostom, 344-407)[33]
Augustine of Hippo regarded speaking in tongues (that is, xenoglossia) as a gift for the apostolic church alone, and argued that this was evident from the fact that his contemporaries did not see people receiving that gift in their own day.
In the earliest times, “the Holy Ghost fell upon them that believed: and they spake with tongues”, which they had not learned, “as the Spirit gave them utterance”. These were signs adapted to the time. For there behooved to be that betokening of the Holy Spirit in all tongues, to shew that the Gospel of God was to run through all tongues over the whole earth. That thing was done for a betokening, and it passed away. In the laying on of hands now, that persons may receive the Holy Ghost, do we look that they should speak with tongues? Or when he laid the hand on infants, did each one of you look to see whether they would speak with tongues, and, when he saw that they did not speak with tongues, was any of you so strong-minded as to say, These have not received the Holy Ghost; for, had they received, they would speak with tongues as was the case in those times? If then the witness of the presence of the Holy Ghost be not given through these miracles, by what is it given, by what does one get to know that he has received the Holy Ghost? Let him question his own heart. If he love his brother, the Spirit of God dwelleth in him. (Augustine of Hippo, 354-430)[34]“
T
I think Charismatic experience is based on an emotional response to God but is this such a bad thing, (if properly discerned),and cant we get too concerned at the external expressions of love for God and ignore the Internal?
I appreciate you have a great love of the Latin mass (or is it just a particular form of that Mass) but do you have the right to criticize other valid forms of worship?
We should all be wary of diabolical influences not just the charismatics
Are you so sure that the Holy Spirit has not chosen to spontaneously authentically reveal himself to so many
I agree with you that Charismatic worship is not appropriate to the Mass but can it not have a place outside it? Some of my charismatic friends agree that some years ago there was a sense that the Charismatic movement was the new Church but that this hasn’t eventuated and instead Charismatics have matured into the Church and developed greater appreciation for the liturgy and the teaching of the Church. Surely this is the proof and fruits from the Charismatic movement that so many have deepened their love of the Church and seek authentic Catholic worship as a result of their experience.
I think you want to make the Church too small and narrow but it is limitless and organic. This fits with Jesus as the head and a God who is so immense and the Holy Spirit so boundless
Pray for the Church!
DV, I and many others prefer to heed the warnings given by many good priests in this country and from overseas over the 30-odd years since disaffected Catholic priests brought this movement into the Church from the Protestant Pentecostal movement, one well known priest who left the priesthood and got married. These priests are not attempting to make the Church small and narrow but many are speaking from experience of what this movement has done to the Church. Also, this argument of making the Church small or narrowing Her is often used by those who want to promote their own novelties. It is also an argument levelled against the Church by Protestants, because that is what the Charismatic movement has done: opened up Cathoics to Protestant ideas and praise and worship, tongues, baptism in the spirit, all of which have been practised by Protestants for years before “this spirit” was imported into the Church.
Yes, everyone has to be wary of the diabolical but most of us are not actively seeking after signs and claiming charisms that they hope are the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Nevertheless, what people choose to do in private or in groups like Dove is their own choice and people do not need to attend if they’re not comfortable. So I have asked why Praise and Worship and healing sessions are compulsory at Hearts Aflame when many young Catholics are not comfortable with it?
T
As I understand Hearts Aflame it had its roots in the very thing you criticize – the charismatic movement. It is by the fruits we are judged?
You make too much of the evening sessions I understand they are more instructive and involve talks and instruction than simply a ‘healing’ session. The talks are compulsory not participation in ‘healing’
It is a testimony to the leaders that they have matured the summer school to reflect the wide scope in Catholic worship and with sound teaching. The pentecostal movement has attraction for our young Catholics and seduces many of our young adults. This is an opportunity to demonstrate to them that the Catholics have this too but much more besides. The Hearts Aflame liturgies are legendary and inspire many to a greater love of the Church and the things that you find attractive as well I dare say. I have heard this testimony more than once from those who have attended.
As for me I will be guided by Mother Church who do you follow?
DV, I see on earlier posts some who have attended Hearts Aflame have also complained that the Praise and Worship sessions are compulsory and that they are Protestant in origin. I don’t see anything else wrong with Hearts Aflame and know it has very good fruits. From your comment on “who do you follow” I take it you don’t consider the priests I have quoted are Catholics in good standing with the Church. They are obviously a lot more experienced than you, and from that comment I take it you are obviously not long out of nappies and with very little experience of the Catholic Faith, and if you went through the RCIA programme that would explain why.
Back at the beginning there was a lot of talk about conservatives and liberals… I’ve been called a conservative more times than I can remember. Its cost me friendships and possibly even jobs… But I’ve always maintained that these political terms are irrelevant.
I’m happy to be called a faithful Catholic….
But I’m becoming increasingly frustrated with a beligerant minority of scrupulous nay sayers who give the average faithful Catholic a bad name.
To praise and worship God has occured for ever! Am I to think (as Terisina might) that gregorian plainchant is the only way this can be done? Were Davids songs on timbrel and harp rejected by God? Who has seen a lyre around lately?
I’ve been to hearts aflame. Anyone who has will testify that central are mass, adoration and prayer of the church. Yet for many… P & W moves them.
Perhaps Terisina and many like her should consider that they are the ones immature in the faith!
Protestants were big on it before us because they don’t have the beautiful gift of the Mass we have…. However if we reject it just because it came from them we are on dangerous territory…. Id hate to tell you this Terisina but there will probably be Protestants in heaven!
Rant over! I’m going to bed
NRC, and many faithful Catholics are plainly sick and tired of wishy washy uncharitable Catholics like yourself who expect other Catholics to suffer through Charismatic song and dance which leaves them cold, and bored witless by repetitive nursery rhyme music that has been foisted on them at Mass for years. It is obviously made compulsory at Hearts Aflame because otherwise very few would turn up.
“Id hate to tell you this Terisina but there will probably be Protestants in heaven!” Let’s hope for your sake you’re one of them, because charity is the greatest gift of all and your rant shows you’re sadly lacking in that sphere.
T59
practice what you preach?
You are either judging HA in ignorance or simply being obtuse
The praise and worship NCR refers to was not at Mass or even in a Church. Where are you getting your information? Your attack on HA is irrational given they do more to present good liturgy and sound teaching (and yes even promote Latin)than anyone else in NZ.
Have you ever been to a HA Mass?
The irony of your ranting is that others at HA would likely say that compulsory attendance at daily Mass and the talks and group sessions is not to their liking either, rather than allow picking and choosing this simply asks for a commitment to participate in everything not just be in your comfort Zone. If anything the contrast between P & W and a good Mass should reinforce the gift of the Eucharist not diminish it.
Pray for the Church!
Teresina – it does seem to me that you may have a sort of “if it’s Protestant, it’s bad.” I am not remotely charismatic myself, but I do think that for some Catholics, things like Praise and Worship, and even – shock, horror! – speaking in tongues, brings them closer to God and to the Catholic faith.
I am reminded of when I was Reformed and a Calvinist. In so many ways, the rule for guiding our practice seemed to be: if the Catholics do it, it’s bad. I recall, in 1986, I think it was, our little Reformed church in Pukekohe, which I helped to found, bought a church building that had belonged to the Baptists. It had a large (bare) Cross on the outside. The elders removed it. This was Catholic – and idolatrous.
I would be inclined to distrust reaction as a basis for making judgements.
jj
Teresina,
Different Popes have spoken in support of the Catholic Charismatic renewal … there are some in our parish who are devoted to daily Holy Mass and demonstrate reverence towards our Blessed Lord in the Tabernacle .. more so than some others.
Thank you and all who have been commenting for it has made me look into the movement on good old Google …. what I have read there has made me look at the lack of strength of my love and devotion to the Holy Spirit … charismatic is not for me but , as has been said …”by its fruits..”
http://www.ccr.org.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1:catholic-charismatic-renewal-in-the-catholic-church&catid=2:articles&Itemid=24
Shalom
Teresina @ 53,
It is dishonest of you to quote from the wikipedia page of St John Chrystotom and Augustine about them saying that Glossolia (speaking in tounges of languages that can be understood) has ceased, when the very next passage tells how Augustine believes speaking in tounges that cannot be understood is a good thing
For those looking for it this is the wikipedia page
So Teresina, do you then agree that the speaking in languages that cannot be understood is in fact a real spiritual gift, or were you cherry picking your source?
Also @ 52 again when you say
You have completely contradicted yourself with that quote. There needs to be an illness of serious nature (which according to my catechism is ‘in danger of death).
I repeat the sacrament is not for general healing of ailments that are not life threatening, such as blindness, gammy feet, or for any type of mental illness. To quote from the Catholic Encylopedia
There is speculation as to what constitutes a valid fear of death, but I’ve never everseen a suggest before that ailments like blindness, or stomach ulcers qualify.
@ John @ 61
That’s a truly fantastic story about the Calvinists and the cross. I had a good chuckle about that.
John Whyte et al, If you look back through the posts you will find there has been a similar discussion about Praise and Worship being compulsory at HA and those expressing their preference not to attend. Some, in good conscience, may not wish to attend. I certainly would not, in conscience, attend a charismatic session because of the dangers that have been pointed out about it by many a good priest throughout the 30 odd years or so the movement has been in the Church. It is akin to private devotions as the Church has not given blanket approval to the Charismatic movement:
http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/charismatic_renewal.htm
So, Catholics who are sceptical, who are concerned about the aspects of it that are open to the diabolical, who do not in good conscience want to attend these meetings should not be required to attend these sessions.
John Whyte, I stated that “If these young people are truly physically or mentally ill they should go to a priest for the sacrament”. There is no contradiction there. Except I didn’t realise that mental illness wasn’t covered by the sacrament.
So I take it from what you are saying that there are large numbers of young people with mental illness, or who are blind or crippled, or with stomach ulcers, is that why they need these nightly healing services? Wouldn’t they be better to go to a doctor to treat such ailments or wouldn’t they be better to accept these minor illnesses as their cross from God?
Also, how many people do you actually know who have been cured by these sessions. I have heard of no one cured having attended Catholic Charismatic healing sessions.
Teresina,
If you can’t see that blindness is not a valid reason for the sacrament of the annointing I honestly don’t know what to say. Physical illness on its own is not valid matter for the sacrament. Full stop. End of Story.
You’ve also ignored my response @ 49 that there was only one healing night thing in the ten days. + one mass of healing for the family tree.
I know of two who were healed. One from something mental (she was in my small group), and oen who I knew as a friend and still know who had her eye healed. She used to have a gammy damaged eye.
John Whyte, you have got yourself a little bit confused in post 63 as “the speaking in tongues that cannot be understood” is referring to what St Augustine was saying about the psalms, not to be confused with the crazy drum beats and guitar ridden praise and worship music of the Charismatic movement.
In closing about anything charismatic being foisted upon anyone, going to Hearts Aflame and complaining about the required activities is like joining and order and complaining about the chores required.
Also for a non attendee to be making claims of the demonic when we have two of the holier priests in New Zealand being quoted as saying they are acceptable. Plus the support from the other priests + religious + others who attend is just ludicrous.
John Whyte, I don’t think any physical illness is worth chasing after something that could well be from the diabolical. Who does the healing – is it one person claiming to have extraordinary gifts or is this supposed to be a manifestation of the whole group laying on of hands?
And do you think that those people who in good conscience don’t want to attend Praise and Worship and healing sessions should have to do so?
The Church hasn’t given blanket approval to the Charismatic movement and that should be borne in mind by Hearts Aflame.
I quote the wikipedia page for those who haven’t clicked through
It may be from a commentary on the psalms buts its still clear he talkings about to sing in the heart without actual words but with the sound of jubilation.
The link of This book particularly pages 135-138 which are avaliable in the preview give an understanding of Augustines view without the very dense english of the above translation.
Teresina,
In a group camp I have zero sympathy for any person who doesn’t want to attend a group activity.
I certainly didn’t enjoy everything at Hearts Aflame. And I still think one of the speakers was dead wrong on one of his points.
But I still went back.
I will also say given that I’ve met some of the past and present organizers of Hearts Aflame, I would say they are infinitely more qualified to judge the charismatics attending (which whilst I was there was some rather cools nuns) than someone who has never attended.
As I mentioned, the question of the obligatory Praise and Worship sessions has been raised before on Being Frank. It was also pointed out that the following statement was a double standard:
“All of the scheduled daily Masses at Hearts Aflame 2011 are Ordinary Form Masses, so no one needs to fear that by attending Hearts Aflame 2011 they will be forced in to participating in the Extraordinary Form even though they may not wish to do so.”
http://www.beingfrank.co.nz/a-people-without-a-liturgy-is-not-a-people
“I will also say given that I’ve met some of the past and present organizers of Hearts Aflame, I would say they are infinitely more qualified to judge the charismatics attending (which whilst I was there was some rather cools nuns) than someone who has never attended.”
Using that argument, John Whyte, that means you consider you are not competent to comment on anything you haven’t attended. That’s just an argument used to shut people down that you don’t agree with. Also, it was mentioned that one of the holier priests said it wasn’t his cup of tea. That speaks volumes to me!
DV, Apart from Sunday Mass it seems wrong to make attendance at everything compulsory. For many attending Charismatic praise and worship healing sessions, when even the Church warns caution, goes against some people’s conscience. Canon law states:
“1782 Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. “He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters.”53
So Catholics have the right to refuse to attend P&W/healing sessions that go against their conscience, particularly when I read in post 27:
NCR, I want to highlight your comment where you say, “But I’m becoming increasingly frustrated with a beligerant minority of scrupulous nay sayers who give the average faithful Catholic a bad name.” Faithful Catholic, were you ever called out from the pulpit and told you were being singular because you chose to follow the advice of good priests who told you to continue kneeling and to receive communion on the tongue, and to receive only from a priest? I doubt it. You can’t even begin to know what it has been like for faithful Catholics over the last 30 to 40 years, or for the humble good priests who chose to be chucked out of their diocese rather than to conform to programmes like Renew that were written by dissident Catholics like Monica Helwig. Were you ever called non-Catholic by traditionalists because you refused to stop going to the Novus Ordo Mass, which you knew was valid although stripped of most of its beauty? Were you told that you were averse to change, pre-Vatican II simply because you chose to remain Catholic and stick to what you’d been taught as a Catholic? Why couldn’t they change us when everybody else was moving with the times? It was simply that we were the product of a good Catholic education. Give me the boy till seven said the Jesuits and I will give you the man. And how right they were.
We are battle hardened after 40 years and there are few of us left, many gave up and left all together and others went on to the SSPX.
Of course the majority posting here are young, inexperienced and/or converts, many of whom will not have received proper instruction through the RCIA programme. Hopefully it has improved from the days where people were given a plastic cup and asked to cut it into the shape of the church they’d like to see.
I had expected being Frank there would be strong orthodox Catholics but am disappointed to see people are in the main wishy-washy – they’re not happy with something but won’t speak out for fear of offending so they’re inclined to back peddle. Well, that’s not the Catholic way. That’s not the way Catholics used to be brought up. Good Catholics knew their Faith and stuck to it. There were no grey areas and you stood up for what you believed.
So NCR, you should be grateful instead of disparaging and calling people belligerent who are standing up for their Faith, which is continually being watered down with Protestantism, and yes some Protestants will go to heaven but their salvation will not come from the Protestant Church, as comments from both Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict testify. It is thanks to nay sayers, people that have said no in the Church that there is any Faith left at all. How long will the Faith be preserved if we have a new generation of wishy-washy Catholics? The liberals on this blog stand up more for their beliefs, wrong though they may be, than those you would hope to be the next generation of solid Catholics. The Charismatic Movement has never been mainstream Catholicism. You all need to find out a lot more, otherwise you’re going to fall prey to any passing novelty.
T
No one ever said that Charismatic movement was mainstream? NCR’s reaction is similar to many who are trying to make a difference and restore to the Church much of what you aspire to. They get pillared from the left and the right and it is tiresome and demoralizing except they are making a difference and that is more than your absence is achieving
Actually T you might be surprised at how truly orthodox most on BF are. I know some of these people and they are the most active in seeking to reestablish the reverence and beauty of the Mass that you also treasure.
I don’t know you and clearly from your comments you don’t know me but I share much of what you say and your aspirations for the Church.
If you confuse me as a liberal then this is due to the reaction you provoke. I assume you have left your parish and are now celebrating the Mass you want with like minded Catholics and a well formed priest who is not afraid to be a priest? Well have some sympathy for your friends back in the parish church trying to make a difference and restore good liturgy and witness to those with little concept of reverence and poorly formed with timid preists unsupported by their Bishop. It doesn’t help that most of the reverent Catholics are now missing but in giving glory to God we are all building up the Church so you keep doing the best where you are and I will do likewise.
Pray for the Church!
No, I’m still in the parishes, although a roaming Catholic, finding the holiest priests I can.
With the introduction of various ideas into the Catholic Church, such as Taize, transcendental meditation, mantras, Wicca, Reiki, there is much more to be careful of and watch out for than just good liturgy, important and very dear to the heart as it is to us. All I can say to young Catholics is find out about your faith which has been handed down and entrusted to you and build your house on rock, and then neither left nor right will shake you free.
None of the priests I mentioned left the Church but they strove for orthodoxy of liturgy and Catholic belief. A couple were shunted off to the Catholic Diocese of Christchurch, a loss to us but certainly a more peaceful Catholic environment for them. One of the most derided, Fr Chalky Duggan died most recently, and it was noted that neither Bishop Dew nor Cardinal Williams attended his funeral. One good soul is raising this with Bishop Dew to say she missed him at Fr Duggan’s funeral but imagines he was out of the country and unable to attend.
I remember a sermon given by Marist Fr John Cleary many years ago. He said, “Archbishop Leferbre is coming to Palmerston North. Don’t go. If you go you will end up like the Protestants who are heretics to this day”. He said the Protestants left for valid reasons such as the selling of indulgences. He said if they had stuck with the Church they would have found those things corrected but they chose to leave. He said to look to neither left nor right but go right up the centre. He said that priests could do nothing to stem the Albigensian heresy until Our Lady appeared to St Dominic and gave him the rosary, and he said the rosary will finally restore the Church. That is the weapon.
Now some at being Frank will not like what he says about Protestants being heretics to this day, but that is the Catholic position. The promise of the Spirit is given to the Catholic Church alone.
T
This thread is about to time out so it is nice to be able to say well said and I agree with you. (except for the last line perhaps because the Holy Spirit goes where he wills)
That priest was wise It is the strength of the Catholic Church that we can disagree and still be Catholic whereas protestantism has split 30000 times and counting
We must work and pray to build up the Church. The new liturgy has been a move in the right direction
Thanks be to God for B16 and his successor!