Happy Anniversary ! ! !

Last week on Wednesday, it was 50 years since the promulgation of Sancrosanctum Concilium, the Dogmatic Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy from the Second Vatican Council. Somewhat apart and separated from this document, came the implementation of the Liturgical Reform which happened after Vatican II. Marty thought he'd share some celebratory visual aids with you, to remind you all of some of what this joyful moment (after the Council) has brought us. 

ENJOY ! ! !

UPDATED:

Here is a very special homegrown example of the wonderful fruits of the Liturgical Reform given to us by the Council. This was emailed to me. It is a video of a Liturgical Dance, performed at an ordination up at the Auckland Cathedral.  Behold and be amazed as the newly ordained priest is the main performer. 

FESTIVAL PROCESSION FOR HOLY MASS

EASTER VIGIL EXPRESSIVE DANCE

WEST COAST 'CALL TO ACTION' CLOSING LITURGY – LITURGICAL PUPPETS

LA EDUCATION CONFERENCE – CLOSING LITURGY

FOLLOWING ARE SOME PHOTOS OF THE WONDERFUL FRUITS:

A Church in Dresden, Germany, Beautiful Artistic Expression

And others…

Pope John Paul II's Liturgical MC, Piero Marini, is half-pictured on the right below. He was heavily involved in the post-Conciliar Liturgical Reform.

 

Thanks be to God, this archaic narrow-minded and medieval expression is what we left behind…

HAPPY ANNIVERSARY ! ! !

50 years ago last Wednesday

50 years since Sacrosantum Concilium

Is your liturgy like what Vatican II

 

PS: Marty is not suggesting that these images and videos are a full representation of the wonderful fruits which have come from the post-Conciliar Liturgical Reform. Marty simply wishes to alert people to these particular wonderful fruits, which are of course, a recovery of the pristine Liturgy of the Early Church, when people could create their own worship style. These have been occurring at different moments during the Church's history. It is good to see that we have recovered them and that people are benefiting from the Liturgical restoration and renewal which followed the Council. Since the Council, there have also been other liturgical expressions, which unfortunately have not been in the spirit of the Reform, and have held on to certain retrograde and rigid attitudes. Liturgies celebrated like those encouraged by Pope Benedict XVI fall into this category.   

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    Comments: 70

    1. Don the Kiwi December 10, 2013 at 10:04 am

      Good heavens Marty. "BAARF…(cough…cough)  BAAARF.!!!

      You just made spew in my morning coffee.

      How those bishops and priests allowed this travesty of liberal and feminised garbage to insult the Sacred Liturgy is beyond me. Some of those images reminded me of the start to a Bacchanalean Orgiasthic Festival, and others the preparations for the idolatrous rights of gaia the earth mother in front of a wooden/stone totem.

      No wonder the Church in the USA in in such turmoil and dissolution. Michael Voris is right.

    2. bamac December 10, 2013 at 10:25 am

      Marty,

      That is unbelievable … unbelievably sad!!!

      Don, you are right, it is just as we would imagine a pagan ritual of old might be …Satan must be overjoyed at his success!!… Indeed, God Bless Michael Voris and St Michael's Media for their efforts at speakingout against such incredable abuses of Holy Liturgy.!

      Pray ,pray for Holy Mother Church .

      Mrs Mac

    3. Benedicta December 10, 2013 at 10:57 am

      Ditto…..what is there to say.

      I would only say that it would be possible for clergy to be highjacked. By that I mean that some things that happen when they turn up for celebrate Mass might be organised by others. They may not know that there is dancing about to happen.

      Please don't think I'm making excuses…I'm not, but not every person or member of the clergy may be consenting to this. If a Bishop or priest was celebrating Mass as a visitor how could they stop this within the actual Mass. I do think priests can be swamped with irregularities and when they are in another priest's parish they can't say or do much about it.

      But the point is that the whole scenario is out of control isn't it?

      What do you think of weekday Masses being held in the parish house instead of in the Church….? This seems to becoming the preferred option…the excuse in winter is the cold and the cost of heating the Church.

      How is it not then becoming more like a private Mass?

       

       

    4. Teresina December 10, 2013 at 12:21 pm

      Looking at these videos and photos reminds me of why Pope Leo instituted the prayer to St Michael the Archangel – prior to Vatican II recited after every Mass (apart from the Latin Mass it is recited in at least one parish in Hamilton after the weekday Masses together with the three Hail Marys).

      These prayers were instituted in accordance with a vision Pope Leo had had:

      "Exactly 33 years to the day prior to the great Miracle of the Sun in Fatima, that is, on October 13, 1884, Pope Leo XIII had a remarkable vision. When the aged Pontiff had finished celebrating Mass in his private Vatican Chapel, attended by a few Cardinals and members of the Vatican staff, he suddenly stopped at the foot of the altar. He stood there for about 10 minutes, as if in a trance, his face ashen white. Then, going immediately from the Chapel to his office, he composed the above prayer to St. Michael, with instructions it be said after all Low Masses everywhere.

      When asked what had happened, he explained that, as he was about to leave the foot of the altar, he suddenly heard voices – two voices, one kind and gentle, the other guttural and harsh. They seemed to come from near the tabernacle. As he listened, he heard the following conversation:

      The guttural voice, the voice of Satan in his pride, boasted to Our Lord: "I can destroy your Church."

      The gentle voice of Our Lord: "You can? Then go ahead and do so."

      Satan: "To do so, I need more time and more power."

      Our Lord: "How much time? How much power?

      Satan: "75 to 100 years, and a greater power over those who will give themselves over to my service."

      Our Lord: "You have the time, you will have the power. Do with them what you will."

      In 1886, Pope Leo XIII decreed that this prayer to St. Michael be said at the end of "low" Mass (not "high", or sung Masses) throughout the universal Church, along with the Salve Regina (Hail, Holy Queen); and the practice of the congregation praying these prayers at the end of Mass continued until about 1970, with the introduction of the new rite of the Mass."

      http://www.michaeljournal.org/visionleo.asp

       

      All these things have been struck out since Vatican II – and I am sure the Devil does think it is a happy anniversary!  Who would have believed that all these things shown here by Marty could have occurred at Mass.  Who would believe that there could be such a thing as  Haloween Mass.  One wonders at the mentality of the people who have allowed themselves to become involved in such sacrilege.

       

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khco_N-uEOY

       

      If the prayer to St Michael the Archangel was offered after every Mass it would help to drive Satan from the Church. 

       

    5. Boanerges December 10, 2013 at 12:29 pm

      Forgive me if this is an unkind or inaccurate observation, but many of the priests in these photos look elderly and frail. I see the liturgical abuses in these pictures and bemoan them as much as anyone, but wonder whether in some cases it might boil down to permissiveness and a lack of energy on the clergy's part to take a stand. The fruits of an ageing priesthood??

      Perhaps we might yet see a new generation of priests emerge who will be energetic and fearless in confronting these practices. We live in hope! 

    6. bamac December 10, 2013 at 12:36 pm

      Teresina,

      In our parish the prayer to St Michael is not recited after Holy Mass but is said in the prayers after the Rosary which is recited every morning except on Sundays  … maybe this could happen too in other parishes?

      Mrs Mac

    7. Teresina December 10, 2013 at 12:40 pm

      And Marty mentions Piero Marini (who is touted as a great favourite of Pope Francis) the Master of Ceremonies responsible for a lot of the liturgical reform – even Benedict XVI didn't escape – what do you think of this little number?

    8. Teresina December 10, 2013 at 12:45 pm

      And Marty mentions Piero Marini (who is touted as a great favourite of Pope Francis) the Master of Ceremonies responsible for a lot of the liturgical reform – even Benedict XVI didn't escape – what do you think of this little number?

      http://hughosb.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/mariazell.jpg

    9. Abenader December 10, 2013 at 2:34 pm

      Boanerges

      Correct observation in that many of these priests appear elderly. But, there are also what appears to be 2 influential cardinals in the photos (?Schonborn with balloon and Cardinal Marx-a member of the gang of 8, blessing the birdcage). It appears that many younger priests prefer the last photo in the list presented above. Not a few are 'held back' by the grey-heads who have if anything, lost the plot big time! Are these sanctioned? Highly unlikely cos this is part of a continuum of the slide in which Holy Mother church finds herself. How many souls are being lost in the proocess.

      On the other hand, we find a "Total War" against some of those who wish to offer the Holy Sacrifice as our fore-fathers have done http://eponymousflower.blogspot.co.nz/2013/12/absolute-war-against-franciscans-of.html

      http://eponymousflower.blogspot.co.nz/2013/12/attack-against-franciscans-of.html

       

      An important question is who controls the seminaries?

    10. paulinem December 10, 2013 at 5:10 pm

      Congratulations on the wonderful photos you have gathered they are very very  beautiful and so much a church that makes God one of us  ..yes it was a wonderful release from the sad out of touch Church to the average worshiper it was before Vat 2 .. I was told  recenlty In the year of faith meetings that visitors to the church pre Vat 2 with the latin mass would come away saying all they did babble a lot of jumble rubbish ..and others who said my mothered enjoyed her first Mass AFTER r the Vat 2 when it was spoken in her own language ….. before Vat 2 she would go to Mass as she felt she had too and say three decades of the rosary !!

      Yes the photos show that Mass is now a celebration of the faithful  together joining in a communal celebration of the joy and gifts that God has given us ..especially the teachings and the communion of the gift of Jesus himself in his body and wine …    Today we go willigly to see our best friend …unlike pre Vat 2 where many went because they felt they would be condemed if they didnt go and God was a distant monster!!
       

      Today we can take visitors to Mass and they will actually be able to follow this celebration .of the community ..  in  dancing they are celebrating with God and I am sure if you will look closely at the photos you will see Jesus joining in with them ..as been of jewish parentage birth ..dancing in joy is very much part of the culture Jesus grew up in…

      Thank you God for vatican two sincerly ,….if we continued with  the previous sad judgemntal somber out of touch with reality and worship of  unreal to the real world most lived in our Church would have DIED especially as it was more a European church than a global church as it is today …and unlike Marty I am NOT writing this in sarcasm like you are  ….

       

      Marty all I can say get with the real world ..we left your world behind over 40yrs ago for a very good reason we would have died as a Church if it continued ..if you and your friends cannot accept these change .which are for GOOD …then go away and form your own church  !

      Today mass is a communal celebration to God where dancing is part of celebrating .

    11. bamac December 10, 2013 at 5:19 pm

      Paulinem,

      I don't believe that you really believe all that you just typed… i believe that you like to stir so I for one will not bite the carrot!

       God Bless,

      Mrs Mac

    12. paulinem December 10, 2013 at 5:21 pm

      Don the Kiwi and Teresina ..suprise suprise your reply ..shows that you really are a sad pair ..do yourself a favour get to know the REAL CHRIST he's not whom you think it is …. we have left the world you love behind years ago ..and we wont ever go back to it ..life with Christ is to be celebrated  you two should take the shackles of misery that you see God with  and see him in a new light !! he's our friend not a judgemental monster !!

    13. paulinem December 10, 2013 at 5:24 pm

      Mrs Mac…I WAS not stirring I really beleive what I wrote ..this is the church today face this reality !!

      Jesus is all about LOVE and celerbration as is the mass today !!

      If you cannot accepat this then YOU are in the WRONG church and

      God bless to you Pauline

    14. bamac December 10, 2013 at 6:34 pm

      This episode is on topic … what thinkyou Marty and Don?

       

      http://www.churchmilitant.tv/daily/?today=2013-12-09

      Mrs Mac

       

    15. Don the Kiwi December 10, 2013 at 8:07 pm

      paulinem.

      I don't know who has told you that the pre-Vatican II Church is like you say it is. I grew up in that Church till I was in my late twenties – there was much joy and hapiness and reverence – that we don't have now – at a deeper level of the senses, thatn we have today in the childish nonsence that was shown in those videos.

      If the "modern" Church as you describe is so wonderful, how is it that there are Catholics abandonning their Faith in such huge numbers, that has never happened before in the history of the Church? Hoe come parishes all over the world are closing because of the lack of people? Even Dunedin diocese and Wellinton diocese are having to close parishes. 

      If the "modern" Church is so wonderful, paulinem, why is all this happening? It never happened in the Church before 1968 – the number of people in the Church was growing, and we had more priests and religious than we needed. Now, there are nowhere near enough.

      Why, paulinem??

    16. beyblade December 10, 2013 at 8:24 pm

      I shall put in my 10 cents worth; Paulinem, I was struck by your sibilant undertones on another posting – it closed to comments before I got around to posting, but  I noted you exhorting others to leave the religion of their childhood behind and get with the (your) programme, so to speak. Anyone can correct me – but didn't Jesus tell us to be like children in our faith?

    17. Werahiko December 10, 2013 at 9:56 pm

      I am not entirely sure why the baroque and archaic features of the final image are preferred by God in comparison with any of the earlier images. What is it, do you think, tha makes God like curly golden bits, and not circus references? And what it it, exactly that makes God upset by sing indigenous head gear, but find acceptable a mitre, or a biretta? And just when were these truths revealed? Worship of a particular liturgical or cultural form is idolatory.

    18. Marty Rethul December 10, 2013 at 10:20 pm

      Bamac, yes, that is exactly what is going on – the Cult of Man. 

    19. Marty Rethul December 10, 2013 at 10:21 pm

      I don't understand you Wehaiko. Of all people I would have thought that you would understand respect for cultural and religious norms. 

    20. Marty Rethul December 10, 2013 at 10:26 pm

      Paulinem, I would like to echo Don's questions and points. How are things going in Churches which have adopted modern forms like those Marty has shown? Have a look at the Dunedin Diocese. Numbers wise it's been in complete freefall for many years now: people and cash. The entire Diocese has the same number of people attending Mass as the Cathedral up in Auckland, and its income is probably the same as the Mass going numbers. It's a total debacle.

    21. poorclear December 11, 2013 at 5:29 am

      I think the greatest power of the sort of 'liberalism' that ends up liking or perpetuating the above absurdities, or defending them from the sidelines, is the power to flatter a person that they are superior for finding a 'sophisticated' way or reason to hold something that is really really stupid.

      The story of the 'emperor's new clothes' is alive and well among catholic liberals and feminists.

      Why does God prefer a splendidly decorated Church of Baroque style to clowns and balloons? Hmmmmm. You tell me. Why should we even have to answer that question? I think it is even worse than seeing those images to see that some people can't see what is wrong them.

      But here goes….. maybe there is a difference between reverence and triviality? Maybe the incarnation makes the transcendent amazingly immanent without making it absurdly trivial? every age has a way of being reverent and of manifesting beauty. But that doesn't mean that every thing in every age is just another expression of reverence or beauty. There is a wonderful simplicity in the medieval chapels of Assisi – but they point immediately to an encounter with the divine. There is a wonderful expression of glory in the marble and refinement of the Renaissance, grasping at the glory of Christ's glorified body, and here even the emphasis on the human that characterises the Renaissance is redeemed. There is a wonderful grandeur in the churches of the Baroque age, which try to manifest the splendour of the truth in the ornate decoration.

      Now to say 'what if God was one of us, just a slob like one of us' isn't quite to capture the spirit of the incarnation …. God is one of us thanks to the incarnation, in order that we can be divinised, as the liturgy says. "May we come to share in the divinity of Christ who humbled himself to share in our humanity."

      We manifest for little children at their parties a spirit of celebration and fun by coloured balloons and funny blow-whistles, and little masks, and games like musical chairs…. and little candles on the cake for them to make a wish…. and we all clap, and the child is delighted usually from being finally the centre of attention – even for just one day a year. And this is good for a child's party. It is tragic for divine liturgy – and even more tragic when someone can't see why.

      It is odd to clap God even. I've seen this sometimes at mass, after being urged to clap the musicians and other organisers we have been invited to give God a round of applause. So I guess we are saying – well done God, that was really good this time…. congratulations God, thanks for your efforts God, we'd just like to acknowledge that you put a lot into this and so we'd like to show our appreciation. This is patronising God – we become God's patrons.

      Liberalism can't cope with transcendence because it puts God back in charge – and that is intolerable. God is an appendage, a cloak of respectabiity, or cosiness. He is not Lord. He is on our leash. We are in the driving seat. We approach God and our terms and control him accordingly. He is our pet God. He must never be almighty – or I am not mighty. He must never be the king – for all kings are tyrants aren't they? He can be friend but more like 'mate'. He's a buddy to txt when I need something or block when I don't. And He must never be He. Because all men are tyrants, like all kings.

      Feminism prefers paganism because it finds that the immanent earth is more akin to women than the transcendent sky. And anything with a cycle reminds them of a woman. And regaining control is the main value. So contolling the earth's elements as we 'celebrate' the earth's cycle is titilising for the feminist. The white witch is preferable to an obedient virgin. The four winds are preferable to the Holy Spirit who blows where he wills. And if we can harness the power of the winds or the crystals or the fire like the spell bearers of old, we can be free with a freedom that the world alone can give.

      How sad and odd that little men who were called to priesthood, stand awkwardly and sometimes smile or grimmace from the sidelines while fierce and bitter women who were called to the religious life spit their venom on the liturgy of God. All the while liberals look for sophistocated reasons why making a fool of the liturgy is just another way to be reverent . They are like teenagers who think they have hit upon something mind blowing when they ask: how do I even know you are in the room? How do I know that everything isn't just in the matrix?

      ohhhhh – so deep. I'm going to explode if you get any more deep.

      Or maybe you're just being a git.

       

    22. Benedicta December 11, 2013 at 6:57 am

      I'm in agreement with everyone here accept Paulinem and
      Werahiko's position (re God at least).

      Good stuff Poorclear.

      Simply it is an illustration of the results of erroneous understandings of nature and Grace…..more fully described as created nature and Redemptive Grace. They are  completely distinct from each other.

      (Which is why our argument the other week was vigourous but in essence we all agree that they are two separate and distinct orders and to confuse them leads to problems; however they come to be confused which was what we were arguing about not that it is necessary that they are distinct.)

      Worship becomes false worship when we worship what is of man and call it sacred or made sacred of itself.

      In other words Christ presence is about confirming us in our created natures as sacred (that being created in grace is sufficiently sacred)…including OUR achievements of culture etc. Therefore Christ has not come to rescue the Titanic but rather to help us the passengers and crew play a better game of shuttlecock while sailing about the cosmos. (Just to illustrate the clown mass for what it actually is). Christ simply came to help us do what we do better.

      But as St Thomas would say on the contrary Christ is the like the rescuer of the Titanic and has a completely different order of interaction with us: only Christ's Incarnation, passion and resurrection (and consequently His continuing to be actually substantially present among us in the Eucharist – His transcendent reality enters into the immanent reality sacramentally) is the epochal event which substantially changes the outcome for the whole Titanic and her passengers and crew should they choose to participate in Christ's plan to save her. Playing shuttlecock makes us deaf, dumb and blind to the reality of absolutely everything and is of our own making.

      Therefore Werahiko asks a great question…..

      ~~What is it, do you think, tha makes God like curly golden bits, and not circus references? And what it it, exactly that makes God upset by sing indigenous head gear, but find acceptable a mitre, or a biretta? And just when were these truths revealed? Worship of a particular liturgical or cultural form is idolatory.

      Answer: NOTHING AT ALL. Nothing can be added or subtracted from God; He doesn't need our worship…..we do. We need to worship what is true and real or we don't encounter God. We miss Him altogether. Our eyes aren't opened at Emmaus. God is not upset by our worshipping as clowns or by equating pagan cultural items to be the same as those set aside as belonging to him alone.

      Rather God passes judgement on our rejection of revealed truth about who He is and who we are. He judges us for confusing our creatureliness (however clever, cultural or humanly good) with The Holy Trinity. Moreover what Christ did to 'turn the ship around' is not received or itself…even though God is always faithful to His covenant and comes even to the clown who thinks he represents the sacred. Is this the unforgiveable sin? That we take the work of the Holy Spirit and say it is our work? Therefore as we turn to ourselves and away from God which always begins and ends in how we worship….how can this be anything but a manifestation of apostasy?

      We need to worship in true knowledge – worship in a way that we can recognise the distinct orders of us the created and Christ Who is God. This worship being made possible by the revelation of the Trintiarian God is who is all that is. He is and we are not.

       

       

    23. paulinem December 11, 2013 at 9:06 am

      Poor clear ..why did God choose for his son to be born n poverty than in luxuary fit for a king ..answer he wanted his son to emhasies  with his children and their lives …  To love some one isnt the Hollywood version of love its a lot deeper ..its understand emphasie etc etc wisdom etc etc ..to the others will answer later have to go to my local clerbration of Mass….

      Just a quick note to ponder on ..maybe just maybe the decline is casued by the materalistic world we lived in ..maybe the decline in priest is becsue of our rediculous Middle century celebracy rule ..which God willing will change soon as they are now looking at this …Maybe the church you and I grew up was a very false particiapation as many belonged out of fear ..and maybe today the congregation is practising becsue they actually believe in waht they are doing ..maybe the priests nuns etc we ahd back pe VA2 when we were  a illitest contradictory bully/condeming  of a church ..were there becsue of family pride etc and escape the depression and family problems ie sex abuse !!!!!

      Face it you silly people the church has MOVED on and  wont be going back God now is our friend not our condemnation monster ie mortal sins ( that no longer is part of our faith by the way !! ) Look seriously some of you like Don Marty Terisina  etc really need to ahve a long talk to your priest really you do !! bye I am goign to be late for mass if I dont send this now !!!!!!!

    24. Benedicta December 11, 2013 at 10:16 am

      ~~why did God choose for his son to be born n poverty

      No, God didn't send Jesus to make a social statement about poverty. Jesus was born in Bethlehem in a poor stable….essentially God sent Jesus to us behind enemy lines. Had he been born in a more public way or lived a more socially promenent way growing up Jesus would not have been safe. Herod was looking for him constantly.

      Of course there is a lot to say about poverty…but God doesn't love economic poverty he hates it that is why he loves the poor because the world doesn't. Also the poverty that Jesus taught was spiritual poverty which was demonstrated in his disciples by not being attached to worldly things. Worldly things tend to rule you. But dealing with that is consequential to Jesus amongst us not the primary purpose….he did not come to teach us a method of spirituality….how not to be attached to worldly goods….but in the first place to save us.

      Also you say that the decline (?? numbers?) may be caused by the materialistic world we live in.

      I would say yes to that. But materialism is not just about having stuff and wanting stuff. Materialism is a manifestation of acedia or spiritual sloth. Poor people can be materialists as well as rich people. But when they are converted to Christ they have more freedom to respond to the demands of Christ because the material cost is not so great….see the young Rich Man in scripture. That said…Christ loved him too.

      The deeper problem of materialism is the reduction of human lives to materialist ideas…that essentially we are cosmic rubbish somewhat evolved. Atheism breeds despair. We have stopped believing in the reality of God as transcendent and domesticated into someone not like us but completely one of us. Jesus is welcome without being God….we prefer him economically and socially socialist and a spiritual leader we can emulate. Someone more like the Dalai Lama and Nelson Mandela (without the necklacing and other acts of violence). Someone who actually saves the people NOW not in the transcendent hereafter…

      The Church in the past was not all fear, bullying priests and nuns…that is the experience of some and maybe in some places quite a few. But that isn't what the Church teaches anymore than hippie Jesus. There are false ones everywhere.

      The simple point Paulinem is that worship matters so that the real Christ is truly adored. Doesticated Jesus and Deepak Chopra's Jesus are pretty harmless and non threatening except he isn't the Gospel Jesus. I think the real Jesus would have been very frightening because he would have seen right through the lies we tell ourselves – across the board and taking no prisoners and no sides would have been heart breaking for those truly seeking God and anathema to those who had already found him in their own imaginations.

       

       

    25. sienna December 11, 2013 at 11:13 am

      So, Paulinem is Jesus a clown or a puppet?

      Please, please stop reading or listening to who ever it is that has given you this ridiculous view of Christianity and the Catholic Church – you have been well advised previously to get an authentic catechism.  For the love of  God and the good of your soul please take that advice.

      I know many good and faithful priests – they have EMBRACED celibacy as part of priesthood!

    26. bamac December 11, 2013 at 11:37 am

      I find it so sad that so many people have been robbed of a true understanding and deep love for the The Holy SACRIFICE of the HOLY MASS….infact , after reading poor Paulinem's last comment, they have lost  true appreciation , understanding and joyful love that can be found in our holy Catholic Faith…. real joy of soul and not the misplaced and false joy as shown in the videos and photos that Marty gave us in his post,

      This discussion has made me realize how generous God has been to me in not letting me have also lost so much and how much I must beg of Him the Grace of perseverance and an ever deepening love for Him and the truths of the Holy Church He founded on the rock of St Peter….. does anyone else find that such discussions as the one on this thread ,help deepen their love and appreciation for the true meaning of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass?

      How can anyone really believe God would have waited for about 2000 years to intervene in HIS Church if , as they say, we had misunderstood HIS message and got things so wrong?

      Shalom,

      Mrs Mac

    27. Benedicta December 11, 2013 at 12:40 pm

      Amen to that Bamac…even St Paul had the humility to beg God for perseverance…..I think it means you have the insight of sensing the great abyss which Our Lord crossed for us in order to give us a narrow path by which to cross in his wake; which is present for us in the Sacraments and especially the Eucharist. Realising the helplessness of one's own creaturely self in light of the immensity of that abyss is a wonderful Grace.

       

    28. Abenader December 11, 2013 at 2:42 pm

      Coming soon to a church near you. Well, actually a few weeks ago at a place near some.

      https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=607173215985087&set=pb.236226876413058.-2207520000.1386725637.&type=3&permPage=1

       

    29. paulinem December 11, 2013 at 3:09 pm

      Many of your replies tells me that you have not been familiar with the Catholic church  for a period of years ..you have returned with the misguided belief that all is as it was when you walked away…

      Well its not over the last 40yrs the Church has grown and become more the church that Christ commanded it to be at the Asscension …..  I have been fortunate and have always been in the church from baptism ..I grew up in the rigid judgmental church many of you did ..I saw the church was crowded back then ..BUT most  ( we all knew ) only came to church out of fear…..marriages in church etc was done by command ie spouses became catholic as they were told  they would not be able to marry the person they loved unless they changed  etc ..

      This left a  deep deep scar on our church and WAS NOT what God wanted for his church .especially the elitism that we were better than Protestants etc BS …… This is why God gave us Vatican 2 !!

      Unlike many if you I was around  after Vat 2 and took advantage of the adult education  the church offered ..and like the Church I grew as a person in God's faith …

      The Mass is NOT a sacrifice any more its a joyous celerbration this is why there is dancing as it should be at mass on certain occasions as  for many cultures around the globe dancing is very much part of  celebrating ..

      Mass is now said in the language of the culture of the community not the very european latin mass … today those attending mass can now fully participate in  celebrating the mass as they understand what is being said …now after Vatican two the sermon is about what Christ is teaching  for that day and not the priests hobby concern ..as was often the case pre Vat 2 ..

      Recently I attended by mistake a latin mass in Wellington ..what Isaw horrified me I saw the majority of the congregation were bored and looking all around them even when the Our father was being said . Why they had no idea what the prayer was saying ..the only reason most were obviously there  at this mass was the entertainment of the singing ..MASS should NEVER be used  a community  entertainment !!

      Today the church teaches us that God wants us to freely choose whether to follow him or not ..this is what true friends do don't they !! This is why our churches are poorly attended ..but when God's ready it will come full again in HIS time not ours !! I believe this is why Christ removed Benidict whom was quiety destroying the church and gave us Pope Francis ..he is the most wonderful breath of fresh air the church has had in years and is speaking to millions  in his simplicity ..he will bring people back  to the church

      Sienna ..some priests are happy not to be married some would like to be ..that is life just as some of us choose to marry and some of us choose to be single …  Married priest must come we are losing way to many good potential priest due to this stupid middle age chucrch ruling .. that was introduced for very earthy reasons  … (re community inheritance laws and the church was losing money and assets due to these laws !!) St Peter was a married man and he was our first pope ….Christ never in any of teachings suggest our priests should be celebrated !! Isuggest the rule will change hopefully in your lifetime you will see a family live in our presbytery's.

      Now I think I have answered enough ..one again many  many of you like poor clair etc are very very confused as to the Church and its purpose  you really need to get to know Christ and this can only happen by reading scripture and talking to your priest …

      Christ was not born in a stable by accident ..I have no doubt God deliberately arranged this as He wanted his son to identify with the poor…. God  is all about the simple life not opulence  ..

      I suspect he prefers a mass in a beautiful garden or a beach with wildlife in abundance   than one said in the opulence of a cathedral ……..after all this how Christ spent most of his preaching time while on earth in simple everyday backgrounds and not in luxury surrounds !!

    30. bamac December 11, 2013 at 3:41 pm

      Paulinem,

      I feel so very sorry for you , I too was brought up for many years in the church pre Vatican 11 …you are wrong too re catholic marrying a non catholic back then … my father was a non catholic ..he promised to bring up any children that might be given them by God … their marriage was held and blest in the church , as were many othersYou claim that the church that we loved was judgemental and yet dear Paulinem you have done little else with reference to anyone who disagrees with you.

      You keep telling us that we should speak to a priest … I have, and was told that should pray for anyone who has ideas like yours … that I do do every day …

      God Bless

      Mrs Mac

      As we have assured you before , we did not go to church out of fear but out of love … there was much joy there… the churches were full as were the sodalities , youth groups , mission groups … we went to church because we knew Who was there in the tabernacle waiting for us and we did indeed know and love our Blessed Lord and His Holy Mother so very much … we were encouraged to have a close personal love for our Triune God 

    31. John Jensen December 11, 2013 at 3:45 pm

      And, PaulineM, again, the Mass is certainly a sacrifice, else our sins are not forgiven.

      jj

    32. Lucia Maria December 11, 2013 at 3:59 pm

      PaulineM,

      Same arguments as last year: http://www.beingfrank.co.nz/some-reasons-for-optimism-this-week

      If the Mass is a celebration not a sacrifice, then no wonder faith is in decline in NZ.  No point celebrating the same thing over and over and over again.  But if it's a sacrifice, a sacrifice that we can unite ourselves to, Jesus' actual sacrifice on the cross made present, then there's every reason to go as often as possible.

    33. Dominican December 11, 2013 at 4:22 pm

      1330 The memorial of the Lord's Passion and Resurrection.

      The Holy Sacrifice, because it makes present the one sacrifice of Christ the Savior and includes the Church's offering. The terms holy sacrifice of the Mass, "sacrifice of praise," spiritual sacrifice, pure and holy sacrifice are also used,150 since it completes and surpasses all the sacrifices of the Old Covenant

      Paulinem The mass is also a lot of other things but is still is SACRIFICE  – the above is taken from the Catechism of the Catholic church POST vatican II

       

      The above is  from the  Catechism of the Catholic Church

    34. Benedicta December 11, 2013 at 4:39 pm

      Wellington…Paulinem….have you been sucked into the vortex of Sauron?

      Oops sorry.

      Fancy thinking God removed Pope Benedict because he was… ahem… destroying the Church?

      Are we, including God, all simply wandering around Middle Earth trying to make sure the right side wins. If God is simply another participant who wants celebration parties and better entertainment on the Titanic then why doesn't he just go and make himself more useful. Instead of God bothering Pope Benedict why didn't he simply take care of the Christian persecutors in the Middle East and other places so the Church could go on having celebrations. You know a few bolts of lightening, and earthquake or two just to show he wasn't on their (the persecutors) side.

      Hmmmmmm…..

      Sounds like Manicheanism can be added to the wandering vices of heresy.

      I think you and Werahiko have a similar idea as to what God is as Christopher Hitchens….but rightly Christopher Hitchens thinks that sort of God (the non object of his atheism) is not worth worshipping.

    35. paulinem December 11, 2013 at 5:23 pm

      John sorry but going to Mass has NOTHING to do whether you are forgiven your sins …Jesus LOVES you all he wants is a close relationship with you ..this can be anywhere anytime … All you have to do to be forgiven is go to your quiet place and ASK FOR  forgiveness ..Jesus told us in scripture do this and he will forgive you! ..as he told the women  adultery ..after he stopped the men from stoning her … where are you accusers he asked the women ..they have all gone sir she replied … neither do I accuse you . YOUR SINS ARE FORGIVEN .GO AND SIN NO MORE …John your quiet place is wherever you find complete peace in your home,  garden wherever YOU find peaceful …then John if you still don't feel at peace go to confession and talk to the priest ..I assure you when you leave the confessional you will feel totally at peace ..

      When you go to Mass John don't feel a sinner ..go with joy in your heart to give thanks for all the wonders has give you ..listen with joy in your heart to the message  of Christ the priest reads at mass to you and then explains what Christ is telling you … feel excited when the priest offers the bread and wine up to become his body and blood ..then feel humbled how fortunate YOU  are to be able to RECEIVE  Christ INSIDE YOURSELF!! I assure you this is what Christ wants for you !!

      Mrs Mac  I suspect your priest gave up trying to explain how you got it all so wrong …he told you to pray as he realised he couldn't help you ..your mind was too closed and therefore you were Gods problem  …. Dominica Lucia Benedict ..no idea what christian church you  have chosen to belong to but I do know its NOT the Catholic church of today ..yesterday yes !!    the Catholic church today is where Christ belongs  ..where as yours !!

      Go and see a priest you really need too !!

    36. bamac December 11, 2013 at 5:46 pm

       

       

       

      Paulinem,

      That is exactly what this good priest said about you and your , as he put it , your way outof line ideas!

       I came across this link of words of Pope Francis whom we all love just as we have loved every other Pope God has chosen for us :-

      http://www.news.va/en/news/pope-reflects-on-temples-where-we-worship-god

      Shalom,

      Mrs Mac

       

       

    37. Dominican December 11, 2013 at 7:19 pm

      Paulinem, please do tell us what you are reading – who are you  listening to.  Are you sure you you are understanding correctly.

      Did you realise that nowhere in the documents of V2 is there an instruction that the priest must face the congregation! There are lots of other "innovations" that don't appear either.  Do your fellow parishioners think as you do – does your parish priest?  You seem to think you are at the cutting edge of a new revamped modernised institution and we are all back in the dark ages. 

    38. bamac December 11, 2013 at 8:34 pm

      Marty and All,

      This article is definitely on topic and, I feel, worth reading.

      http://southernorderspage.blogspot.co.nz/2013/11/pope-francis-once-again-say-about.html

      Mrs Mac
       

       

    39. Benedicta December 11, 2013 at 8:52 pm

      ~~All you have to do to be forgiven is go to your quiet place and ASK FOR  forgiveness ..Jesus told us in scripture do this and he will forgive you!

      You make it sound so easy Paulinem. Go out on the street and get on a soapbox and tell the world and hear what they say to this little suggestion. The enemy is much to clever to let those in trouble take up your trite suggestion. Its battle on! Obviously you have lived a good life all the time and don't know how far one can go and how long the road is back….all the time being such a nice person and believing in Jesus. (Even the devil believes in Jesus).

      The only thing the enemy fears is Christ, His mother, the angels and saints and the power of the Church. The enemy is not afraid of your conscience. That is very easily manipulated. The only thing which disempowers the enemy is obedience and this is only manifest in this life when it is obedience to the Church. All other things can be total illusions.

      Matthew 18 is the institution of reconciliation.

      I think it is very possible to quite freely choose to limit one's own freedom (taking up drugs for example). There is no subjective sense of wrong doing. In fact when we do sin we often feel quite justified and find it quite rewarding….its only later that the trouble starts. So sitting in a corner and feeling the peace can be part of the experience of committing objective sin. The more you sin the more insensitive you come to other sin and before you know it your life has radically changed. True sin is a downward spiral evil doesn't just go around and around it sucks you right under. You can get to this place in the most wonderful way…in the most amazing relationship with the most fantastic person you ever knew in your life. Bingo! Your a gonna. The enemy feeds you first then murders you.

      God on the other hand makes you very very uncomfortable and you find yourself in a battle and God is the warning voice but you just don't believe it because you feel so great. So God is very trying to you when you are about to do something or in the early stages and so you aren't at peace at all. How confusing. Later when the enemy is tying you up and about to throw you off the cliff it might be that God's voice is the one you now want to listen to. But the problem is the further away from virtue the more likely you are not to hear God's voice anytime and in fact you are on your own. Only Grace can help you now….I don't know if it is a certain thing or a sometime thing.

       

       

    40. Lucia Maria December 11, 2013 at 9:29 pm

      I love this, from your link at 5:46pm, Mrs Mac:

      "Following God’s word, the Pope went on, requires a continual purification, since all of us are sinners. We do this through prayer, through penitence, through the Sacraments of Reconciliation and the Eucharist."

      That's Pope Francis for you Pauline!

    41. Teresina December 12, 2013 at 2:14 am

      Pauline, you need to buck up your ideas as nothing you have written remotely resembles what the Catholic Church teaches – in fact it is akin to Protestant beliefs.  I have been a practising Catholic all my life and have never come across any of what you suggest.  We certainly have the odd renegade priest who promotes a warped view of the Church's teaching and it looks as though unfortunately you have come under the influence of someone like that.  It would pay you to purchase a catechism and find out for yourself what the Church teaches because it is said that many who say "Lord, Lord" will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven and it is sad you are being led astray.  Remember Our Lord Himself said that those who eat His flesh and drink His blood unworthily eat and drink damnation unto themselves.  That needs no explanation.

    42. muerk December 12, 2013 at 9:31 am

      I have to say that the examples of Holy Mass given above make me feel so sad. As a culture we have lost our sense of reverence and awe and this has been expressed in how the liturgy has been remodeled. I'm not saying we need to return to fiddle-back chasubles and Latin to regain this reverence, but clowns, balloons, and dreary modernist architecture are not the way to lead people into the sacred. 

       

      Dear bishops and priests… if you read this, please understand. The liturgy we want as the Bride of Christ is one of sacred _beauty_. We want to be uplifted and transformed from the ugliness of modern life. We want to enter a sacred space and feel drawn up to God by the beauty of our suroundings and the beauty of the liturgy. We want our senses assailed by a taste of Heaven. If you ever wonder if your new design is beautiful or not, get a bunch of children and ask them. Their innocent eyes should be able to give you an honest answer while everyone else is convinced the Emperor has new clothes. 

       

       

    43. Lucia Maria December 12, 2013 at 9:37 am

      Here's a good read on a related subject from Fr Longenecker, on Church Architecture which is related to how Mass is celebrated: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2013/12/of-teepees-and-tabernacles.html

      Some quotes:

      "G.K.Chesterton said ‘Every argument is a theological argument’, and the modern churches clearly reflect the beliefs of their builders. First, the builders and their buildings are fundamentally utilitarian. Driven by the unquestioned modernist dogma that, “Form follows function” they have designed not churches, but auditoria."

      and

      "When it comes to whether the church should be beautiful or not, the building committee have adopted the doctrine of Judas: “Why should the money be spent on costly ointment when it could be given to the poor?” In other words, let’s cut out all that beautiful stuff. That’s expensive. We need a few statues and vestments, but cheap, mass produced stuff will do. However, too often, once the cheap choice is made they forget the idea that the money saved was to go to the poor, and they pocket the savings themselves."

      and

      "I have never understood why Christian architects agonize over the basic structure of a church when the Bible itself (which they are supposed to believe is inspired by God) has a whole section on church architecture. One only need read the twenty-fifth to thirtieth chapters of Exodus to see just how God wants his house to be built."

    44. Benedicta December 12, 2013 at 10:13 am

      http://www.southernfriedcatholicism.com/2013/12/priest-shortage-not-everywhere.html

      I picked this up this morning. When you open it scroll down watch the clip.

      The point is – where are progressive actions, exampled like the liturgical ones above, leading us?

    45. bamac December 12, 2013 at 10:30 am

      Benedicta, Thank you for that link … so god to learn about something positive

      Shalom

      Mrs Mac

    46. John Jensen December 12, 2013 at 11:01 am

      Pauline – it's not going to Mass that forgives my sins; it's whether Mass is a sacrifice.  If it is not – if it is not the sacrifice that Christ offered for my sins – then my sins are not forgiven.  And if I go see a priest I may or may not feel at peace – but I won't actually be at peace with God unless the Mass is a sacrifice.  Because the Mass is a sacrifice if and only if Christ's sacrifice paid for my sins.

      BTW I do in fact go to Reconciliation weekly.  I do it precisely because the Mass is a sacrifice – it is Christ's sacrifice.

      jj

    47. Marty Rethul December 12, 2013 at 12:23 pm

      Click here to see a beautiful fruit of the liturgical reform applied in the Auckland Diocese, up at the Cathedral there. This was a dance performed at an ordination of one of its priests. Very beautiful, as I'm sure many of you would agree ! ! 

      EDITED: Marty has now updated and added this video to his main post up above.

    48. bamac December 12, 2013 at 12:28 pm

      Marty,

       There was no image to click on ,  the link didn't want to work for me either,

      Mrs Mac

    49. bamac December 12, 2013 at 12:31 pm

      OOPS!!!   Slow on the uptake me … have it now …. sorry and thanks

    50. Marty Rethul December 12, 2013 at 12:39 pm

      Hi bamac, I've updated the main post back up at the beginning. The link should also work now down here. Marty

    51. bamac December 12, 2013 at 1:01 pm

      Marty,

      This is the same cathederal that had the haka during Holy Mass from memory … Am saddened by the ordination ceremony but am afraid that nothing absolutely surprises me any more with happenings in at St Patricks.

      Mrs Mac

    52. withhope December 12, 2013 at 1:45 pm

      Good on you, Marty. These 'weapons of Mass destruction' have been going on for years. They poison the Fatih and ruin vocations: 'True religion is worship of God. Merely satisfying the spiritual is the worship of man. So when liturgy is distorted to make the congregation feel good – you have worship of man, not of God. When catechesis is emulsified with the culture so as to be palatable to the faithful – you have worship of man, not of God. When heresy and dissent are coddled and made excuses for – you have worship of man and not of God.' Michael Voris http://www.churchmilitant.tv/platform/index.php?vidID=vort-2013-12-09

      on that topic – watch all about how the NO invention was manufactured: 

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fpG2sQg_fg

       

    53. withhope December 12, 2013 at 1:45 pm

      P.s.

      Please sign the petition for the Franciscans of the Immaculata who are under attack for holding to and nourishing the One enduring Church, Faith and Mass.

      http://eponymousflower.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/we-demand-dismissal-of-father-volpi-as.html

    54. withhope December 12, 2013 at 6:08 pm

      werahiko: the POV being described by you is protestant; no one's forcing you to be Catholic (three pillars, scripture, history, tradition). Remove any one and it's no longer Catholic. The Catholic Church is the fullness, not the barest.

       

       

    55. MrTips December 13, 2013 at 7:58 am

      Don't forget the Catholic Church has four characteristics if you will;

      ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, APOSTOLIC

      Its in the Creed. Its why we say it. I would say all of those pictures/video's fail on #1, #2, #3 and #4. I don't recall St Ignatius wearing a mask and running a puppet show while he was being dragged to Rome.

      But time will sort this out. The hippies are decaying.

       

       

       

    56. Psyche December 13, 2013 at 9:29 am

      Mr Tips, I think that you are probably right in terms of many of these hippes. But after watching that video of the ordination dance at the Auckland Cathedral, those people didn't look that old. The priest dancing was young, and the bishop there still has many years to run on the clock. This stuff isn't going away any time soon. I had a look through some of the other pictures posted by abenader from the Auckland Youth Ministry site and there are dances going on all the time at youth Masses it seems, and they are all young people. Nothing will change unless the clergy and bishops understand that the Sacred Liturgy is not cultural performance or entertainment. But that is not going to change anytime soon in NZ.   

    57. Teresina December 13, 2013 at 11:03 am

      The latest video posted by Marty is inculturation gone mad – I personally think that is another big mistake of Vat II and we're living with the consequences.  I think inculturation goes entirely against what St Paul said: There is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus (Gal 3:29).

      Inculturation does not make us one in Christ Jesus.

      It brings in many cases paganism and other religious practices into the Catholic Church – the sequence at the ordination is more buddhist like than anything else.

      We have this in Milan at the Mass of the Ephinany :

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsdshF6923g

      I certainly think Christ Jesus is well forgotten among all this type of performance – people are there for entertainment, note the clapping, not the cameras, note the expression on people's faces …

    58. Teresina December 13, 2013 at 11:12 am

      Psyche, I think Tips is right only because the young people once they leave college are no longer attending Mass – they can get better performances down at the AOG.  They are not taught anything much about their faith – only praise and worship in the form of guitars and jiggy tunes and that soon wears off.  I well remember when I was a teenager going to a folk Mass and enjoying the first one or two and then getting bored with it all – had it not been for the strong Catholic teaching I had received from the nuns and priests in my early years I would have left. 

      The bishops will soon have very little money to keep running the dioceses and they have only themselves to blame for the empty pews and empty collection plates.  Novelties soon become boring …

    59. Teresina December 13, 2013 at 11:16 am

      Also, if you look at the numbers at the youth Masses – how many around the country – perhaps 1,000 or so young people  – if that is the future generation of the Church then the Catholic Church in NZ is going to be very small indeed … 

    60. banter December 14, 2013 at 8:35 am

      The Eucharist

      “Out of the darkness of my life, so much frustrated, I put before you the one great thing to love on earth: the Blessed Sacrament. . . . There you will find romance, glory, honour, fidelity, and the true way of all your loves on earth, and more than that: Death.

      "By the divine paradox, that which ends life, and demands the surrender of all, and yet by the taste—or foretaste—of which alone can what you seek in your earthly relationships (love, faithfulness, joy) be maintained, or take on that complexion of reality, of eternal endurance, which every man’s heart desires.

      "The only cure for sagging or fainting faith is Communion. Though always itself, perfect and complete and inviolate, the Blessed Sacrament does not operate completely and once for all in any of us. Like the act of Faith it must be continuous and grow by exercise.

      "Frequency is of the highest effect.

      "Seven times a week is more nourishing than seven times at intervals.
      Also I can recommend this as an exercise (alas! only too easy to find opportunity for): make your Communion in circumstances that affront your taste. Choose a snuffling or gabbling priest or a proud and vulgar friar; and a church full of the usual bourgeois crowd, ill-behaved children—from those who yell to those products of Catholic schools who the moment the tabernacle is opened sit back and yawn—open-necked and dirty youths, women in trousers and often with hair both unkempt and uncovered. Go to Communion with them (and pray for them).

      "It will be just the same (or better than that) as a mass said beautifully by a visibly holy man, and shared by a few devout and decorous people.

      "It could not be worse than the mess of the feeding of the Five Thousand—after which our Lord propounded the feeding that was to come.”

      Can be found in The Philosophy of Tolkien: The Worldview Behind The Lord of the Rings, p. 219.

    61. banter December 14, 2013 at 9:11 am

      Sorry, the above quote is something written by Tolkein which I have stumbled across this morning whilst surfing the net.  I find it somewhat encouraging.  Clearly poor liturgy, priests and distracting congregations have been a problem for a long time.  Tolkein's Catholic world and experiences were prominently pre Vatican2  although he did experience, and with great pain, the changes to the liturgy late in his life.  The point, here folks, it can be very demoralising and indeed heartbreaking looking at Marty's collection of liturgical horrors.   Whilst it may be right to highlight and focus upon it for a time how do we ultimately deal with it?  What do you do if you are caught up in a parish like so? Usually the problem is so entrenched and widespread one person can not effect even the slightest of changes for the better.  I think Tolkein's advice here  good sound.  Offer it up to God.

    62. Benedicta December 14, 2013 at 9:32 am

      Banter

      That's really well put.

      I agree. Though sound advice also needs to distinguish between poor presentation, rough recipients and accidental issues…..and what is actually anti-Church, heretical encouragings from non Catholic teachings. I think Tolkien means the former….not the latter.

      Working out the difference is necessary and the latter can't be supported.

      If it is at all possible it is better to remove yourselve from the latter…to another parish. But it isn't always possible. Then what?

       

       

    63. Teresina December 14, 2013 at 12:09 pm

      Banter, Tolkien wasn't suggesting that people should attend Mass where there are abuses going on – he was referring to offputting attitudes of priests and laity that one may come across.  He didn't agree with the Mass being changed from Latin to the vernacular and it is obvious from what his grandson says that he didn't offer that up:

      "~Simon Tolkien:
      I vividly remember going to church with him [J.R.R.] in Bournemouth. He was a devout Roman Catholic and it was soon after the Church had changed the liturgy from Latin to English. My grandfather obviously didn’t agree with this and made all the responses very loudly in Latin while the rest of the congregation answered in English. I found the whole experience quite excruciating, but my grandfather was oblivious. He simply had to do what he believed to be right. He inherited his religion from his mother, who was ostracised by her family following her conversion and then died in poverty when my grandfather was just 12."

      ~http://wdtprs.com/blog/2009/08/tolkiens-grandson-remembers-jrrs-reaction-to-mass-in-english/

      His reaction reminds me of my mother and her generation how they were deeply affected by the changes brought in after Vatican II – in many cases they were scandalised because particularly the English Martyrs had died for the Latin Mass.  Because of this many left the church – others went off and formed groups like the SSPX.  I have often thought that was one of the big factors as because of this those who remained were not a large enough group to fight the battle that went on to liberalise the Church – we were totally outnumbered – and things just slowly deteriorated down to what we have now.  The warnings were not heeded and we live with the fruits of the liberals take over of Vatican II. 

      Excerpts from letters from Evelyn Waugh to Cardinal Heenan really show the distress that was caused to good faithful Catholics at the time:

      "

      ~I do wonder whether the hierarchy are fully aware of the distress caused…not so much by the modest and reasonable innovations proposed but by the opening it seems to offer to more radical and distasteful changes.

      Waugh to Heenan, 1964

       

      …do not despair. The changes are not so great as they are made to appear. Heenan to Waugh, 1964

       

      Every attendance at Mass leaves me without comfort or edification. I shall never, pray God, apostatize but church going is now a bitter trial. Waugh to Heenan, 1965

       

      At present the Mass is an untidy mess. I have called a meeting of bishops for next month. There are so many things which, I agree with you, are undesirable Heenan to Waugh, 1965

       

      I want to thank you for all that you have done for the Old Faith and to hope that you will be doing more in the coming year. Heenan to Waugh, 1966

       

      Please pray for my perseverance and for that of the many English Catholics who are distressed and bewildered by the changes imposed on them. Waugh to Heenan, 1966"

       

    64. Teresina December 14, 2013 at 12:13 pm

      Evelyn Waugh said he was concerned  "~~ by the opening it seems to offer to more radical and distasteful changes".  It is obvious from Marty's post that Evelyn Waugh's worst fears have been realised … although I am sure even he didn't envisage any of the above.  In many cases the Mass is unrecogniseable as a Catholic Mass at all.

       

    65. Teresina December 14, 2013 at 12:16 pm

      Withhope – thanks for the Video links – highly informative!

    66. Teresina December 14, 2013 at 12:32 pm

      One point I absolutely agree with in Banter's post is his quote from Tolkien about the Blessed Sacrament: "Out of the darkness of my life, so much frustrated, I put before you the one great thing to love on earth: the Blessed Sacrament. . . . There you will find romance, glory, honour, fidelity, and the true way of all your loves on earth, and more than that: Death.

      … Seven times a week is more nourishing than seven times at intervals".  

      Anyone who is able to attend daily Mass will be able to attest to what Tolkien says – it gives life meaning in its fullest and only sense.  I remember once someone said to me "You are always smiling – what is your secret?"  I probably brushed off the comment but I would say now "Daily Mass".

    67. bamac December 14, 2013 at 1:00 pm

      Teresina,

      Couldn't agree more with you about daily Holy Mass …. you are not the only one smiling … you should see the joy on the faces of all who come to morning Mass here in our parish !…. smiles , reverence and the most friendly atmosphere before and after Holy Mass …. in the foyer,  not in the church .

      At times God lets health problem get in the way of my getting there …. then there is the consolation of being able to make a spiritual Communion isn't there, and we can make this act so many ,many times in the day.     .My P P assured me that as God knows how much we want to be there and takes the strong desire as a done-deed …    how often we can fail to realize how genous and loving God is to us for sure .

      Mrs Mac

    68. banter December 14, 2013 at 1:00 pm

      Yes Benedicta & Teresina, you are right. I think my quote from Tolkien might have been better listed on M&M's 'massive rant' blog to help her get through the next few weeks of the advent wreath!

       

    69. Teresina December 14, 2013 at 10:21 pm

      Banter, thank you for that quote from Tolkien because it was something that I needed to be reminded of.

      Mrs Mac, like you, I can't always get to daily Mass at the moment because of work commitments – I used to and, you're right, it is smiles all round normally (the person who asked me why I was always smiling was in a lunch bar where I used to buy my lunch after lunch time Mass – I didn't have the nerve to tell him why – now that I'm older I would have no compunction in saying I'd been to Mass).  Others say that if they have a cold or aren't feeling 100% before Mass the feel so much better after Mass and that's true too.

      Yes, your PP is absolutely right on that because God knows the heart and the desire and I have a great desire to get back on track to daily Mass if I can and thank you for the reminder about making a spiritual Communion for those of us who can't get to Mass because of work or sickness – Our Lord then comes to us spiritually and we derive enormous graces from that as well.   God bless you, Mrs Mac, there is something about you that keeps us on track (and it rhymes too!)

    70. Teresina December 15, 2013 at 5:12 pm

      At the moment there is a serious dispute going on with regard to the Franciscans of the Immaculate which has now been reported in the mainstream media.  http://www.thenewstribune.com/2013/12/14/2947874/popes-crackdown-on-order-alarms.html

      Marty, mentions the EF Latin Mass encouraged by Benedict XVI.  Could it be, Marty, that you are  on a path to ideologising the liturgy?

      This is a term now being coined by some who appear to be trying to stem the growing popularity of the Latin Mass.  Into the fray has come none other than Opus Dei – that bastion of orthodoxy.  What do they say?  I'll let you read it for yourself.  

       

      "The Rev. Robert Gahl, a moral theologian at the Opus Dei-run Pontifical Holy Cross University, said he was certain that the pope wasn't opposed to the old Latin Mass and was not aiming to combat it by restricting its celebration with the Friars. He said Francis appeared to be taking the measures to quell the internal conflicts that arose over its celebration, and then took other measures after financial irregularities occurred.

      "Liturgy is always a surprisingly sensitive topic," he said. "It can be extremely controversial and can upset communities even when the substance of the disagreement is minuscule. So, I think Francis is pushing for community peace and unity which may entail a temporary reduction in some use" of the old Latin Mass.

      "I'm certain that Francis wants unity in Christ and to put a stop to the back-biting between ideological groups in the church, also by those who ideologize the liturgy," he said."

      Follow Nicole Winfield at http://www.twitter.com/nwinfield

      Read more here: http://www.thenewstribune.com/2013/12/14/2947874/popes-crackdown-on-order-alarms.html#storylink=cpy
      Funny that, I seem to have heard that term from the liberals … Strange bedfellows, but then you've got Fr Rhonheimer at Holy Cross University as well (proponent of condoms for Aids and abortion where the mother and baby would likely both die) and then of course the sermon I heard from the Opus Dei priest that we should TOLERATE even bad things for the sake of unity.  I suspect liberalism has got into the ranks of Opus Dei because none of this would be what St Jose Maria envisaged.