Hi folks.
There is something important Marty wants to bring to your attention this week.
Ever wondered how your tithing money is spent in your diocese? Ever wondered how your hard earned cash is being put to use by your bishop? Ever wondered how well laypeople, who work for the Church, are remunerated?
Watch this little video (link below) about the expenditure of money within the Boston Archdiocese, and hear how one particular individual in Catholic Education is being paid $361,000 per year. Yes, that’s not a mistake.
Apparently, while that figure is at the high end of the remuneration scale, it is not uncommon within the USA for Catholic dioceses. The top 16 laypeople working for the Archdiocese of Boston are raking in 4 million between them. That’s an average salary of $250,000! Do you think that is right?
The average income in the USA is $50,000, and at present, with the financial crisis still hitting many working people hard, it seems somewhat strange to think that people who work for the Church are (for all intents and purposes) fleecing her like that, and are being given money which generous others part with in hard times.
It would seem that some people are taking the Church for a ride. And so often these people do not hold the Catholic faith fully. There is something very wrong with this and it needs to be addressed.
I wonder how much people are paid in NZ who for work for the Church. Are there any reports which show us these figures? I wonder if the Church is being transparent in regard to this? I know that such things are generally confidential, but all the same, one wonders whether there is similar opulent spending going on. How much is spent on salaries? And is this info available?
I think this is important. One shouldn’t publish social justice documents, speaking of a just and living wage for the worker, and then overpay diocesan people to such a level that the Church becomes a source of injustice and a cushy place to do little work and rake in a bloated salary. This would be a terrible misspending of what people give, in good faith, to the Church for spiritual work.
Let’s be honest too. Working in a chancery is not like working in the corporate world, where certain performance and achievement is expected, and there are clear KPI’s to reach. In the world, one has to perform. I wonder what sort of ‘pressure’ exists within a chancery to perform at work? It’s certainly not the same as the business world, and it shouldn’t be. But neither should the salaries be the same as the capitalistic business world, as long as a just wage is paid.
Sometimes I also wonder how money is spend in other areas. I often don’t like what I see in terms of how money is spent in some dioceses. Theological centers which are barely Catholic, and which propagate destructive ideologies, have received enormous amounts of money to fund them. Other programmes, which actually undermine the Church and her mission, have had large amounts given to them. It’s dispiriting.
On another point, Pope Benedict recently clarified in his Motu Proprio on charitable works that any money which is given to the Church for a particular purpose by the faithful cannot be rerouted to another purpose. He said that the intentions of the faithful must be respected. It would be an immoral disregard for the intentions of the faithful if their hard earned money were put into something which they did not intend. This happens more than people realize. For example, if an elderly person bequeathed $50,000 to the Church, and clearly stipulated that it is to be used for work with ‘women in difficulty’, but that money, upon the advice of diocesan financial managers is redirected and spent on building a new office in the chancery, that constitutes a clear ethical violation (even if it is legal), and mostly likely, some sin. The Pope knows that there has been a lot of abuse going on in this regard, where bishops, because of financial pressure, or just bad advice from bean-counters, have misused funds given in good faith. In NZ, it appears as though the bishops have petitioned the Government to have the law changed so that they could reroute bequeathed funds like this.
Regarding salaries, I doubt anybody in NZ would be on $361,000 per annum, but I do wonder whether some people are paid over $100,000. Personally, I think that this would be far too much for somebody working for the Church, even a financial manager of a diocese. The average salary in NZ is about $40,000, and for a person to paid more than $100,000 in the Church would have to be stringently accounted for and clearly justified. If a person chooses to serve the Church by offering their skills and experiences in certain areas, then I think it should be offered with a generous heart, knowing and desiring that they be paid a modest amount, not market rates, which are far above the average. A person who works for the Church should not expect a high salary. Certainly, a just wage should be paid, but the Church shouldn’t be a place of high earning. One wonders if there are any oversight bodies in dioceses in this regard, which can check on such things and keep people accountable.
I do know also, that there are, without doubt, people who work in chanceries in NZ who do not agree with the Church on many issues around sexuality and other key doctrines of the Church (e.g., an all male priesthood). These people are in charge of offices which oversee important aspects of the Church’s mission.
Some people think that the next scandal in the Church is going to be financial. I hope our dioceses pay their workers a just but acceptable wage and that these people work for what they earn. One diocesan chancery in NZ has 70-80 people working in it. I hope money is spent wisely, and that good stewardship is being practiced by the bishops in NZ.
I have been told some horrific stories about how finance people are completely controlling diocesan centers’ spending, basing most decisions on business models and secular world practices. After the irresponsible spending of some bishops, then one can understand the introduction of such people into diocesan structures, but one wonders whether it has gone too far. One hopes that these financial decisions are also informed by spiritual principles and a spiritual vision, which is in line with the mission of the Church. If worldly business models are used to completely govern Church finances, I wonder whether it then becomes possible for people to earn inflated salaries, according to worldly standards and worldly pay scales, at the expense of more important spiritual needs and works of the Church?
Is overpaying people another area in leadership where there is a lack of Shepherding within the Church, a lack of service in love, a lack of governance?
Is it a lack of accountability to Christ, and to the good people who put their money into the plate each week?
Marty isn’t saying that people are definitely overpaid in NZ. But Marty wonders.








Good post Marty. Salary level shouldn’t be difficult to ascertain. There are ways to determine the range of certain salaries as appropriate. I don’t think the Church should underpay and take advantage as justice isn’t served. But the lighter end of any scale would be fair.
If a position is necessary it must have some measurables and particular competencies which definitely add to the life of the Church.
From where I’m sitting I’ve never known anyone from the nerve centre to visit our parish. No catechesis from anyone…which seems to me the bottom line effort.
The only thing I remember was a sister coming around and teaching various world religions. I’m not sure we know our own anymore.
Marty,
Since watching that video you linked to , I too, have been hoping that things are very much better both here and in Aus.
You stated that one diocesan chancery has 70-80 working there … could some of these workers be there on a voluntary basis or are they all on the payrole I wonder? There must be a lot of work involved to require such a number don’t you think ,or am I wrong to even question ?
Mrs Mac
Hmmmmmmmmmm…70-80? That seems a lot doesn’t? What do they do all day.
I can think of a national major service industry here which is highly technical covering the whole country with five or six major terminals to manage including lots of infrastructure to the highest level of health and safety…and doing very well on that score thank goodness and they have 60 staff nationally.
I think a lot of ‘developmental’ positions (I’m guessing here – but the Church is aiming to grow last time I read the scriptures)are difficult re accountability. You put someone in charge of say ‘Youth Ministry’ (ghastly word but an easy example) – wouldn’t you expect some conversions amongst Youth and some increased involvement in Church life? Otherwise its all just feel good stuff.
Benedicta. Those are good points. Where are the spiritual results from all these workers? Or are all these people just admin people, i.e., paper pushers? If so, I’m sure we could do with less admin in some areas. Bishop Drennan was talking about this a while back in the NZ Catholic. I reckon there could be a clean out in some areas of the Church. What have all these admin workers, “managers”, or chancery offices achieved? There has been a cataclysmic decline in sacramental practice in the Church in NZ. Kiwis have abandoned the Church in droves. And what have all these paid people done to curb it? The reason that numbers are stable in parishes is because of the immigrants (God bless them!), not because any pastoral, education, or liturgical plans have worked.
There is a massive wasting of money going I think.
Bishop Drennan :clap_tb:
Perhaps Catholics have been misled – and having been assured for decades that the best thing any modern Catholic can be is a ‘mature christian’. Any doctrinal assent and life of virtue is kids stuff and blind obedience. So conscience radars have been set in opposite modes to orthodox Catholic teachings (moral life?)… then having had that tampered with by wonky Catholic blow hards, who are dying off or hiding in untouchable places like secular universities, (no one is following on from them or reading their books as no one under 50 can remember what they were liberating themselves from), who have turned some teaching facilities into something more like a ‘Dead Theologians Society’. Having turned Catholic consciences into the truly salvific subjective mode God, they assure us, loves our duplicity and free thinking.
How about – ‘Keep it simple’ – convert us with true teaching all the way down to the bone – resurrect conscience and virtue together – that way it might be easier to see the good and do it. Then social justice will follow without the bureaucratic set up.
Mm hmm, that figure of 70 to 80 is concerning. I’m not too sure how many are employed in my diocese but have heard people complaining they think there are way too many.
Marty points out that Pope Benedict has said that money given to the Church for a particular purpose cannot be rerouted for another purpose. It reminded me a couple of years ago I heard that over $10,000 was given to one parish in my diocese by the St Vincent de Paul Soc for World Youth Day expenses. Despite the fact World Youth Day is a good thing for the youth, I told the Committee I felt that was misappropriation of monies that were given for the poor. Another parish was also given roughly that sum and I understand SVD Head Office in Wellington requested all the branches to give money. What was the outcome of my complaint? I don’t know because a week or so later the meeting time was changed to a weekday time that a worker such as myself couldn’t attend, and I haven’t heard from them since. Obviously if you want to do charity work in the Church it pays not to rock the boat!
That’s interesting Teresina. Boat rockers might be blacklisted…!
I think one problem might be the preponderance of former teachers. I mean that teachers are essentially paid by the State and are government minded in the way they go about things…just my opinion anyway. Working in government type positions is completely different to the private sector. Big government attitudes taken into the diocese bring about Big Diocese thinking. They make a position to ‘create’ some difference or development in some area. Private business provides the job to meet the need already apparent. The first approach leads to a lot of thumb twiddling and objectives on plans not met.
Hmmmmmm lots of armchair theory in that posting :jittery_tb:
Benedicta,
In your first comment ..#1 .. you mentiond having a nun coming to your parish speaking about various world religions …. How would it be if if our bishops and their clergy , chancery workers, along with us and all parishioners, had the courage mentioned in this link and the courage to act accordingly .
Maybe we would be told that we are too pre-Vatican and given sympathetic put-down smiles as some of us have but we would not be doing it for our own sakes would we .
Maybe that is not quite what you meant included under your given thread Marty , but then again , maybe it is?
Shalom,
Mrs Mac
http://www.churchmilitant.tv/daily/?today=2013-02-05
there are ‘world religion’ homilies on occasion in the parish I used to go to and quotes from various and sundry athiests and protestants in the sunday newsletter right beneath or above the Gospel excerpt – Ayn Rand included (she was one of the prophets of the culture of death), monies spent on producing a booklet of tradional prayers including an appendix laying out essentials of Catholic doctrine was put up for a bit of ridicule at the end of Mass – apparently the Bishop thought it was a waste of dosh too in this year of evangilisation. I wonder if they are gonna sell that old Catholic school to that Qatar ‘charity’ after all to become a koranic insitutue – talk about spreading the faith – others that is. Imagine the generations of Catholics whose generosity and hard work built that christian school. What will they do with the dosh? Apparently not produce any materials evenagelising the traditons of the catholic faith.
http://www.churchmilitant.tv/premium/index.php?vidID=vort-2013-01-28&ssnID=233
Bamac
Yes, it is hard enough in the world and particularly hard in the Church from time to time.
I appreciate the link – it was a message I needed to hear today. :smile1_tb:
Looks like I have discovered the smiley buttons.
World religion homilies??
Well if you sell a Catholic school in order for it to become an Islamic institute it will be enacting out its own theology – superseding Christianity in fact as well as word.
Unused Churches into mosques is another good move?
Anyway – no doubt big diocese employment will have to change. I see the Archdiocese has a big thing about Stewardship. People travelling to the USA to learn all about it (how much?). I might be wrong but stewardship is a big thing (or so I thought)with Pentecostal Christians. Derek Prince was marvellous on money (I read that book anyway). He really really is!! I loved Derek Prince except when he talked about the book of Revelation and then it seemed a bit too much. (Revelation is not a good genre for Pentecostal readings). The Archbishop’s crew could have just phoned a few local Pentecostals. (It all comes out of the USA anyway – the Protestants move faster as they have less paperwork and policy makers, they are too busy getting people saved).
I would love to live in Poland…
Hey I just checked out Derek Prince’s little book – ‘God’s Plan for You Money’. All the chapter headings seem to flow quite nicely with the Archdiocese blurb on Stewardship.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gods-Plan-Money-Derek-Prince/dp/0883687070/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1360122942&sr=1-1#_
Derek’s book is 5 pounds!
This is the Archdiocese intro on Stewardship.
http://www.wn.catholic.org.nz/catholicstewardship
Theological differences of course! But the plan will be similar.
I remember a Salvation Army Major telling me once that giving one’s worldly goods (treasure in particular) was the last think to be handed over in conversion. Of course time and talent are important. Prince’s book says the same thing – the chapter ‘First give yourself’.
Hmmmmmm there is plenty of dumping on fundamentalists (yes Derek’s one of THOSE) but their ideas are worth paying heaps for in terms of time, talent and treasure.
I know I’m hogging space! :jittery_tb:
But I have one more thing to say – we returned to the Catholic Church by way of a sojourn through an evangelical Anglican parish. Here’s a message I learned from the pentecostal/evangelical pastor in the role of Anglican priest – Liberals don’t pay up!
This chap had sorted us good and proper and in no time we had converted time, talent and treasure – it didn’t need a stewardship course just a real encounter with good old fashioned Baptismal Christianity courtesy of Jesus Christ. But if you keep your eyes on the road – the road always leads to Rome.
So time, talent and treasure came to Rome. Or so we thought. Happily giving our totally converted pockets and all to the new parish of Rome.
It wasn’t long before treasure had to be reallocated. We took it away from the parish leaving them with our time and talent. Our treasure was spread out to FAITHFUL Catholic ministries in New Zealand. Reason? Having crossed the Tiber we found ourselves fed a continual homiletic diet of Rome bashing. Week in and week out. God bless the priest we get on well and we don’t expect him in any way to see things our way but we ain’t giving our money where the Church isn’t loved. In the Church or out of the Church animosity to Rome is much the same in some Church quarters.
You see we love the Church. Its Jesus’ Church how can we not love it. We love it so much it cost us our friends (ALL our friends!), ridicule from family and time, treasure and talent. At the very least preachers should realise not everybody in the congregation hates Rome!
A guide to what Auckland diocese, being the biggest, covers can be found in the New Zealand Catholic Directory, published by the bishops’ conference. Departments which have paid staff include general manager, finance, human resources,diocesan property (which includes school maintenance), bicultural desk, justice and peace office, liturgy centre, marriage preparation, pastoral and evangelization, religious education, seasons for growth ministry, ecumenism and interfaith, diocesan archives, bishop’s office, Catholic Caring Foundation, deaf ministry, Catholic Social Services, NZ Catholic newspaper, communications officer, diocesan library, schools office, as well as national organizations’ branch offices in Auckland, for instance, tribunal and Caritas. Some of the employees in these departments work part-time.
South Sider,
Thank you for that information … more departments than I had thought… Some of them had me scratching this rather ancient head of mine …. just what work and output would come care of seasons for growth ministry? Aren’t there a couple or so with work that almost overlaps or am I off the mark ?
Mrs Mac
According to the Auckland diocese website, “Seasons for Growth works with children and adults to help them understand and express their experiences of change, loss and grief”. I believe it is being run in some NZ prisons. It was also used in Christchurch after the quakes.
There are some synergies and overlaps I believe. e.g. bicultural desk, justice and peace, and Caritas can all be around a given issue, for instance. Property and finance work together often. There’s also the growing youth ministry, which comes under parish and pastoral services. Quite a complex thing.
SS. Thanks for your information. Do you have any idea of what the pay rates are?
Hi Jimmy
You will find more detailed info on Akld diocesan departments, income and expenditure in its annual report (individual pay rates not listed). The 2011 version can be read at http://www.aucklandcatholic.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/AnnualReport2011.pdf
- Pope Benedict XVI
This quote needs to be put up on a big poster on a main wall of every chancery in NZ, including each bishops office, and each person who works there should be required to read it as part of their “prayer before work”.
:drunk_tb:
Admin over load is what we have, in many dioceses!
And money is spent on people who do not fully support the Church in her teaching.
Look at the schools.
An unmitigated disaster of gigantic proportions, where hardly a soul darkens the doorway of a church after leaving secondary school, and so many in “high positions” praise them as incredible success stories! It’s propaganda is what it is, when they rave on about the schools, and yet the clear reality is so strikingly opposed to what they say about them. I’ve worked in schools and seen the mess.
Yet so much money is poured into them with hardly a conscience being moved.
“How many wonderful people we have working in our schools!” they say. Yes, Of course. There are many wonderful teachers, who do their best. But that is not the point. They never seem to look at the reality of who has any Faith at the end of schooling, and admit that something is not working, especially at the secondary level.
Sure, the families are a big part of the issue, but the schools are often a place where students are utterly confused by erroneous ideas regarding the Faith, and they are presented with ideas which contradict the Faith, directly! And these people who do schooling admin silently support such errors because they themselves do not agree with the Church, especially around sexuality, like you have said in your original post Marty. Of course, the curriculum does not explicitly teach error, but it’s what it does not say, and what it leaves out, and how it says things, which are the problem.
These education admin people absolve themselves of any responsibility in this regard, and think, oh well, “it’s their choice”, if they leave the Church.
They seem not to consider that their secondary curriculum might have something to do with it; they seem not to consider that their approach might be wrong; they seem not to consider that their material might be insufficient, or defective. Or maybe they know this, and don’t care?
All my friends from school no longer practice the Faith. Not a single one.
How much money was wasted on a terrible secondary school curriculum? How much money is put into people who continue to propagate the same defective approach to teaching RE in our catholic schools?
I have got to a stage where I refuse to put money into anything that supports my diocesan chancery. I give to Catholic works which I know can trust in terms of their integrity with regard to the Faith.
Another matter of funding has come to light in the Hamilton Diocese. One young woman with the help of the Hamilton Diocese (presumably that means funding) has received her licence at the Opus Dei Pontifical University of the Holy Cross and, after two years study, is now teaching liturgy at the seminary. Why is the Hamilton Diocese funding lay people to go to an Opus Dei University or any university for that matter? Most people have to find their own way through university and any diocesean funding would normally, you would think, be limited to priests or religious.
Also, who is encouraging young women to be lecturers in our seminary, and, this being the case, is it any wonder there are so few young men completing their seminary studies?
I ask the question: are there any women trained at the Opus Dei University of the Holy Cross teaching seminarians at the Opus Dei seminary?
Personally, like JimmyG I am no longer going to support the diocese because if the diocese has enough money to put lay people through university, then I have family members that also need money for that purpose and that’s where it will go.
I certainly am not going to be funding women to be teaching in our seminaries.
Teresina,
Can understand how you feel … after all of two years study this young woman is qualified to teach seminarians ? I hope and pray that her lectures are not as far out on Liturgy as have been some of the lectures and talks given in seminaries in Queensland ,Mercy Centre also in Q’land, and then here in Auckland C T I. by Sister Elaine Wainwright …. Chris would tell us that Bishop Pat thinks that said Sister , along with all the staff at CTI are orhodox , but then Bishop Pat let Sister Joan Chittister and Father Rohr talk here too and saw nothing wrong there either.
Thank you Marty for the post,
Shalom,
Mrs Mac
Hi everyone, interesting post Marty. I work as a Parish Secretary and get $17 p.h – I also do only 4 hours a week and will sometimes come in on a Sunday or early evening – depending on my children and other work. Up until last year I got $15 p.h, but I live in a tourist town and cleaners can earn more than this, so I asked for a raise. I read Bishop Drennans article in NZ Catholic a few months ago saying that School Secretaries could carry out Parish Secretaries work; what planet does he live on? Who would do the Parish work during the 3 months or so that school is on holiday each year? OUr school secretary isn’t Catholic and doesn’t know the parishioners – for that matter even though she is Catholic, the DRS doesn’t know the parishioners either. I have also given my Parish Priest a years notice – I do like him – but the job is a real juggle when there are so few willing to help at Mass even though we have a healthy Priest; lots of visitors so Mass is usually full, and a school next door from whence possibly 2 % practise. On Christmas day we had one man cover three different ministries and he has now left. The Church needs to get back to some truth and start valuing the faithful.
Incidentally – the biggest untruth I have heard lately is that schools are their own faith community – where is the faith if teachers are paid to be present and the pupils are compelled to attend?? I could call my relationship with the tax department a faith community by this standard.
Teresina and Bamac
I do not know the lecturer you are talking about. But I know this that two years for a licence to teach at Seminary level is correct. That licence requires study in a major and a thesis. The point is it is obtained from a Pontifical university – Sapienta Christiana denotes the level and formation of the qualification required. Prior to that they have to have the equivalent of the STB – which means sufficient theology and philosophy etc.
I think if she has qualified through the Pontifical University then she is qualified to teach – end of story.
Also Good Shepherd College, where she works, has faithful and excellent tutors, head and Dean. She is part of a team and will have good support and guidance. If other areas of the Church had teachers as good as Good Shepherd College it would be a zealous evangelisation of faith and reason throughout the land!
There is nothing wrong with lay tutors. I agree that some subjects and areas are better taught by the correctly qualified priest. But liturgy is an appropriate area I think. There are others.
I might add that Dr Tracey Rowland is the Dean for the JPII Pontifical Institute for Marriage and Family in Melbourne. There are many areas suitable for lay people as part of a Church led teaching endeavour.
I think the wonderful thing is that this tutors qualifications are ecclesial. She has been taught in the Church for the Church. There are many universities teaching theology and some are Catholic but it doesn’t mean the end result is Catholic. I don’t see why Opus Dei wouldn’t have a lay woman tutor for a suitable subject. Afterall Jose Maria Escriva and Cardinal Newman were champions for lay people.
Mrs Mac, I think this Opus Dei trained woman would certainly be more orthodox than most woman who have been involved in the seminary, as you rightly point out. However, Opus Dei are much more liberal in their views than I realised. I was surprised to see that two priests of Opus Dei have publicly supported the use of condoms in the fight against aids. “Opus Dei “Father Martin Rhonheimer, professor of ethics and political philosophy at the Rome’s Pontifical University of the Holy Cross, said Catholic thought has tended toward extremes: Condoms either are intrinsically evil — to be avoided at all costs — or a “lesser evil” — and almost morally obligatory — in the fight against AIDS.” That seems to say the ends justify the means, and I have never heard the Church teach that you can choose a lesser evil over another evil.
As regards liturgy, Opus Dei are not supporters of the EF Latin Mass. I imagine this is because there is not the lay involvement that there is in the Ordinary form of the Mass, and Opus Dei spreads their work through lay people. Many lay positions in the diocese are being filled by Opus Dei affiliates. That would be good if Opus Dei were prepared to stand up against the ills in the Church but they seem to be more concerned with the growth of Opus Dei at the expense of the Church. In fact, I have been told that good priests are told not to speak out against things that are wrong but rather to obey the bishop, despite the fact there is no duty of obedience to a Bishop that isn’t following the magisterium of the Church. So our good priests are effectively being hobbled.
Also, surely, liturgy is the domain of the priesthood, not the domain of lay women. If Opus Dei believes in an all male priesthood why are they training lay women in this role and, still more, why are they encouraging women to be lecturers in the seminary which is what the modernists brought in. By following suit in this manner they are not helping the Church.
If Opus Dei is loyal to the Holy Father, let them show it. The Holy Father has called for the EF Mass to be offered on Sundays in every diocese. There could be no better way of showing that loyalty than by offering the EF Latin Mass on Sunday. Everyone knows that priests can offer the EF Latin Mass and do not require the permission of the Bishop, so there is nothing to stop Opus Dei offering the EF Latin Mass on Sundays.
But I digress. Aside from anything else, Opus Dei is a very wealthy organisation in its own right, so the diocese shouldn’t be funding Opus Dei affiliates to train at the Opus Dei university and, particularly in areas traditionally pertaining to the priesthood.
Benedicta, that may be the requisite qualification as you say, but women should not be teaching in a male seminary for obvious reasons. Opus Dei apparently do not allow women to attend Mass at the men’s house, so I doubt that they would allow lay women to teach at the Opus Dei seminary. That begs the question: why then is it good enough for Opus Dei to send a lay woman into Good Shepherd College?
Byeblade, it is only fair that you be paid a fair wage, but from what has been stated here the various dioceses are funding people through university, and many other courses that those people should be funding from their own pockets, as other New Zealanders have to do. Therefore, it is little wonder the Church is running short of money to pay people who are doing necessary jobs. The whole thing needs looking at, as Marty rightly points out. If the Church in New Zealand has money to throw around for university and other courses, that money could be better spent aiding priests and religious in the missions, who are struggling to get clean water, food and necessities for the poor. What would the average person in the pew think if they knew their hard earned money was being used to send lay people to study in Rome and elsewhere? We have several good priests eminently qualifued who could have been sent to Rome to study liturgy and teach in the seminary, but they are being overlooked in favour of a lay woman.
T
Your concerns are misplaced, and you seem to display an unhealthy bias against Opus Dei
I only know a little of these two women but I doubt they are not in fact Opus Dei but are never the less faithful Catholic women and certainly appropriate teachers.
You seem to not be aware of the serious future the seminary faces as the Marists who provide the strong teaching base need to be replaced.
Priests are being trained even as we speak but the laity can also provide the teaching provided they are properly qualified and educated which these two now are.
Your concerns are uninformed and misguided
Pray for the Church!
DV, this is a blog for Catholics to express their views about the Church. Certainly I am sure many of the lecturers need to be replaced at the seminary, but replacing them with young women, whose integrity I don’t doubt, is not the solution. There are good priests who can fill that role. Isn’t it rather unhealthy not to address concerns raised about an organisation in the Church that supports the use of condoms and to blindly support it, no matter what? I find the word “unhealthy” is used by some to try and shut down other Catholics who raise legitimate concerns. I note you haven’t addressed my question as to whether Opus Dei would have women lecture in their seminary? But I think we all know the answer.
T
you confuse the debate
what do you want to debate, Opus Dei or woman teaching in the seminary? because the two discussions are distinct except you seem to want to confuse the two
…… you would have us believe that these two woman are teaching condom use in seminary :glurps_tb:?
Opus Dei dont have problems with vocations as the diocese does and i question whether there are good preists who can fill this role who aren’t already urgently needed where they are
I havent seen the quotes you refer to the Opus Dei regards condoms but even Pope B16 has been misquoted also on this sensitive issue;
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/pope-benedict-xvi-condom-circumstances-fight-aids-article-1.454535
condoms within marriage to avoid HIV infection (but not primarily as birth control) are licit.
Pray for the Church!
DV, I confuse the debate? You were not debating, rather making a statement that to raise legitimate questions about Opus Dei shows an unhealthy bias. If you read what I wrote:
I questioned why Hamilton Diocese was supporting (I have presumed that means monetary support) Opus Dei affiliates to attend an Opus Dei university when Opus Dei is a very wealthy organisation in its own right.
I commented that I was disappointed in Opus Dei’s support of condoms re Aids. If you search the Internet you can find the whole of the statement. I am unaware that the Church allows condom use for married couples where contraception wasn’t the main reason. I would think the Church would recommend abstinence. Can you point to where the Church says that’s okay? The only person I have heard make such a similar statement was Bishop Cullinane. What you say appears to be the same lesser evil argument put forward by those Opus Dei priests which is out of line with traditional Catholic teaching which says we cannot choose a lesser evil – in other words the ends can never justify the means. For the Pope to have an opinion does not make this Church teaching.
Lastly women teaching in seminaries only helps to enforce the liberal agenda for women priests and deacons. Can you point to any Opus Dei seminary or traditional seminary that has women on its faculty?
Teresina,
I agree with Dei about Opus Dei being good value, but I agree with you that surely Liturgical training and learning in a seminary would be best given by an experienced priest for whom the real value of the Liturgy of Holy Mother Church has been ,and still is , such an important part of his day by day life…. he would be more able to empathize with them and explain any difficulties that they might think they have in the early stages of their study and preparation? Maybe we mightn’t have enough suitable and/or available priests here in NZ but could we not import yet another from Australia where there has been such an increase of orthodoxy and numbers in the seminaries there ?
Re Opus Dei, I have only heard good things about them … their daily meditations that I have seen have been more than a little helpful spiritually…eg , this one today …
MESSAGE OF THE DAY
“Jesus is with us”
In the Holy Sacrifice of the altar, the priest takes up the Body of our God, and the Chalice containing his Blood, and raises them above all the things of the earth, saying: Per Ipsum, et *** Ipso, et in Ipso – through My Love, with My Love, in My Love! Unite yourself to the action of the priest. Or rather, make that act of the priest a part of your life. (The Forge, 541)
Thus we begin the canon, with the confidence of children of God, calling him our most loving Father: clementissime. We pray for the Church and for all those who are a part of the Church — the pope, our families, our friends and companions. And a Catholic, with his heart open to all men, will pray for all men, because no one can be excluded from his love. We ask God to hear our prayers. We call on the memory of the glorious ever?Virgin Mary and of a handful of men who were among the first to follow Christ and to die for Him, and we recall our union with them.
Quam oblationem… the moment of the consecration draws near. Now, in the Mass, it is Christ who acts again, through the priest: “This is my body”… “This is the cup of my blood.” Jesus is with us! The transubstantiation is a renewal of the miracle of God’s infinite love. When that moment takes place again today, let us tell our Lord, without any need for words, that nothing will be able to separate us from him; that, as he puts himself into our hands, defenceless, under the fragile appearances of bread and wine, he has made us his willing slaves. “Make me live always through you, and taste the sweetness of your love.”
More prayers, because we human beings almost always feel the need to ask for things — prayers for our deceased brothers, for ourselves. We have brought all our weaknesses, our lack of faithfulness. The weight is heavy, but he wants to bear it for us and with us. The canon ends with another invocation to the Blessed Trinity: Per Ipsum, et *** Ipso, et in Ipso…: Through Christ, and with Christ, and in Christ, who is all our love, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all honour and glory is yours, almighty Father, for ever and ever. (Christ is passing by, 90)
Maybe there are some within its ranks who have said questionable thimgs, as you say, but then that can happen anywhere can it not …
Benedicta,
Have only just seen your comments above . but I still feel that whenn it comes to teaching and training our future priests , the main part of that Liturgy would be best done by an experienced priest .
Shalom,
Mrs Mac
DV this sums it up: catechism of the Catholic Church – 1759 “An evil action cannot be justified by reference to a good intention” (cf. St. Thomas Aquinas, Dec. praec. 6). The end does not justify the means.
Hence, Opus Dei is definitely liberal in it’s interpretation as is Bishop Cullinane. Strange bed fellows it would seem. But some of what Opus Dei preaches is good; on the other hand some is quite liberal. As regards celebration of the EF Mass, here is what Rarote Caeli has to say, although I understand that last year Opus Dei started offering one Mass a week in the EF:
http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2010/02/from-washington-times-editorial.html
(a) From the editorial: “The truth is Opus Dei has never been very courageous in countering modernist trends that undermined tradition in its own church.” Is this untruthful? This does not mean that the members or friends of the Work never did anything in favor of Tradition.
(b) From the comment: “the ‘Work’ has been as antagonistic towards Summorum Pontificum as an institution can be”. I reiterate that, and add: for traditional Catholics around the world, the absolutely underwhelming response of Opus Dei to Summorum Pontificum has been tragic and despairing. If there seemed to be one organization within the Church that was liturgically prepared for a complete reversal to the Traditional Mass and Liturgy, the Work seemed to be it. While blindly following every word emanating from any Roman office had prevented the scrupulous OD from (re-)adopting the Traditional Mass en masse in the 1970-2007 period, the Pope’s own pronouncement, by his own will (motu proprio), seemed to remove any obstacles of conscience that members or friends of the Work might have had. With very few exceptions, there has simply been no response.
(c) As for the OD simply “not liking” Pope Benedict XVI as much as Pope John Paul II, it is as much a matter of perception as of hearing from priests and friends of the Work themselves. It is probably the worst-kept secret in the Church… If one needs evidence of that, just remember the two moments in which the Holy Father was practically thrown to the secular dogs, following Summorum and following the lift of the excommunications of the SSPX bishops. Where were these “new Jesuits” to be seen? They were quite vocal when defending themselves from the contents of a fictional book, but when the current and living Pope needed public defense, where were they?
Mrs Mac, I agree with you that Opus Dei does a lot of good, but I also agree with what Rarote Caeli says on their blog that Opus Dei has never been courageous in countering modernist trends. They appear to prefer preserving their own society rather than the Church
What I object to – and this was told to me by an Opus Dei member – and I have read that it has happened overseas as well – they say that good priests should not speak out against the ills of the Church, not rock the boat but wait until they become bishops themselves. Meanwhile, the Church has been going down the drain and people losing the Faith. Also, if they are in complete obedience to the Holy Father why the apparent reluctance to say Mass in the EF? Obviously the hard word has been put on them in Rome and so they are saying the EF Mass there but they have waited years before doing anything. They are not under the auspices of the local Bishop so would not incur sanction if they said Mass in the EF. So what gives? All that glitters obviously is not gold.
Teresina,
If Opus Dei is as off key as you seem to be saying, then how is it that its founder has been cannonised? Our Holy Father spent quite some time with St Escriver personally from all reports , and would surely have read “The Way” and other boooks writen by him … if any of these books were antagonistic to Summorum Pontificum then would not the Holy Father have questioned him deeply ? Personally , I have never before heard anyone speak quite so strongly against Opus Dei …you really have surprised me.
Shalom
Teresina,
Thank you for having brought Opus Dei into the thread. I have just been reading about them on wikipedia … quite a fair sounding explanation of them .. also mentions different critiques of the … Apparently yu are right about them not saying the EF Hloy Mass but they do very often in places , say the NO Holy Mass reverently and in Latin.
Shalom
Here is the link to the Wikipedia article … it is rather longbut worth the read.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opus_Dei
Mrs Mac
Mrs Mac, Thank you, I will look at that Wiki article. I am not saying anything against St Jose Maria and in fact I had a lot to do with Opus Dei when it first came to NZ. I have read a couple of priests who pulled out, co-operating priests, who said it had undergone a change in the past 40 years and they wouldnt recommend young people joining the organisation any longer.
Some conservative Catholics I know no longer support Opus Dei because they consider they are too accepting of some of the modernist agenda, and also because of lack of support for the EF Mass. That is very strange as I believe St Jose Maria continued to say the Tridentine Mass after the reforms of Vat II.
There has also been dismay in the prolife movement with Opus Dei inviting proabortion speakers, subsequently disinvited and the excuse being put forward that OD didn’t realise they were pro-abortion, which pro life groups didn’t believe because the speaker was such a well known proabortionist. See:
“Local Catholics are in an uproar because the Catholic Information Center is hosting a book signing tomorrow for Cokie Roberts, a notorious dissenter against Catholic moral teaching on abortion, birth control and homosexuality. The TV commentator attacked the partial-birth abortion ban as “cynical game-playing” by pro-lifers and criticized Pope Benedict XVI for “lacking in the theological virtue of charity.” The bookshop run by Opus Dei
Read more: http://p.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/feb/16/opus-dei-sells-out/?feat=article_top10_shared
I am sure that St Jose Maria would not support Opus Dei’s stand in any if these areas.
Hi Teresina,
from what I have heard, the two laywomen in question who are lecturing at Good Shepherd are not Opus Dei affiliates, in any sense of the word.
In regards to the one lecturing in liturgy – again from what I have heard – I would much rather have her lecturing in liturgy than many of the clerical possibilities that would likely be put forward by the Powers that Be.
Thanks for the info, Marty. I understand at least one of those young women is thought to be a cooperating member and lived in the Opus Dei house in Rome. On the last point, although I understand your concerns, I have to disagree because this helps the modernist agenda of promoting women priests and deacons. The mod nuns advocate women teaching in the seminaries. It should be a case of all women out. That would get rid of a lot of the bad.
For good reason, traditionally women have never taught in the seminaries and I have been told that women do not teach in traditional seminaries or in the Opus Dei seminaries. If you know differently please correct this point. If it has to be a lay person teaching in the seminary, then lay men would be more appropriate. It has been pointed out by others that a priest is much more appropriate to train seminarians with liturgy, and I agree with that. I have also heard it stated that psychologically it is wrong for men to be trained by women. I think that is correct as well. I’m not saying that women aren’t equally capable but a woman should not have authority over men seems to be the argument. Perhaps it is felt it leads to wimpishness.
Mrs Mac, Post 34. No there is nothing in the Way or other books of Opus Dei I have read, which is against the EF Mass. In fact those books are a great source of orthodox material written by St Jose Maria. That is why Catholics on Rarote Caeli and others I know are questioning the lack of support by Opus Dei for Pope Benedict’s moto proprio. We all expect to be on the same page but we’re not, particularly on the issue of the EF Mass, condoms and inviting proabortion speakers. In the Wiki article it mentions Opus Dei are – I think they said – complex. That is the problem – very orthodox in many ways but very liberal in other ways. It doesn’t add up to me and others, so we can’t fully embrace them while respecting the good that they do do.
Teresina,
Thank you for post 40… I stand corrected on the state of O D today … my association with some of their members was quite some time back now … hadn’t realized that their attitudes on certain matters had changed so much … but then when one looks at the changes that have come about in so many religious congregations over the years, should one be all that surprised !
Mrs Mac
DV, post 29, there are several responses to the Opus Dei Argument re condom use to prevent Aids and all argue that it is not permissible.
http://www.uccuyosl.edu.ar/pdf/cult_rel/hiv.pdf
“Conclusions: A Short Summary, Answers, and a Final Reflection.
As I proposed at the beginning of this work, the answer to the question of the moral permissibility of the use of condoms by couples infected with HIV rests, in the final analysis, upon an accurate description of the object of the moral act. In this regard I would like to repeat one crucial point whose proper understanding is absolutely necessary for a sound moral reasoning of any given moral case: one cannot will or intend the means (finis operis) without therefore willing or intending its end. This end is the intrinsic telos or finality of the object itself which the intention of the agent (finis operantis) cannot alter nor eliminate. 24
Applying these conclusions to our case, we are now in position to answer the questions proposed at the beginning of this work: Is it morally permissible for a fertile heterosexual married couple to use a condom with the intention of preventing spreading the HIV to the non- infected spouse? According to my analysis, we would have to conclude that it is not permissible because it is a contraceptive act of intercourse. And it is a contraceptive act by reason of its object: “the couple deliberately deploys a contraceptive means because by its contraceptive agency (blocking the seminal matter) they hope to avoid the transmission of AIDS.”25
Forty years after Humanae Vitae, Francis Cardinal Stafford, Major Penitentiary of the Apostolic Penitentiary, in a worth reading recently published article in L’Osservatore Romano, reflects on the anniversary of the Encyclical and the turbulent times surrounding its publication and emphatically reiterates the perennial validity of the teachings of Pope Paul VI – the teachings of the Holy Catholic Church – on this matter: “The unitive and procreative meanings of marriage cannot be separated. Consequently, to deprive a conjugal act deliberately of its fertility is intrinsically wrong. To encourage or approve such an abuse would lead to the eclipse of fatherhood and to disrespect for women.”26
I think I am getting a bit annoyed!
Back to the Liturgy paper, lay women tutors and seminary.
Good Shepherd College provides the theological education for those studying for the priesthood. There are additional studies that the seminarians do that have nothing to do with lay tutors.
The Litugy paper is not a course in how to say Mass!
I have completed the Liturgy paper myself and it is perfectly okay for it to be taken by a lay person. While the Mass is the heart of the Liturgical life the course covers other aspects such as the daily prayer of the Church. I for one concentrated on Sacred Music.
I do agree that Priests are better to take many courses – Holy Orders for example, Eucharist, the Trinity, Christology. But there are many other areas affecting Christain living (Liturgy for one pertains to us all)which lay people can teach.
All this business of liberal and orthodox …I have to disagree because this helps the modernist agenda of promoting women priests and deacons.
It certainly does not! Being a woman is not a carte blanche for old school feminism and an ‘agenda’. Perhaps it just might be possible for a woman to be perfectly in tune with the teachings of the Church in all those contraversal areas. I for one am and perhaps I can thank the good teaching I have received.
Look love the Church and be faithful and box on. There has been no era or time when the Church has had everyone rowing in the same direction. Heresy, schism and since the 13th Century liberalism have always been around. There was no golden age. But Jesus is still with us and the Church is still with Jesus and in Jesus we will get to where the Lord is taking us. Don’t let issues rob you of joy in Christ.
T
the complications occur where condoms are used as a contraceptive which is intrinsically evil(CCC 2370)
Can I put a scenario to you
could a couple practicing NFP use an infertile day with a condom to guard against infection from one HIV spouse?
it is disingenuous to make this an ‘Opus Dei argument’ as this issue has been a challenge to all the minds of the Church and still needs understanding
here is a balanced view of what B16 said (and those Opus Dei preists also?)
http://catholicism.about.com/b/2010/11/23/pope-benedict-and-condoms-what-he-did-and-did-not-say.htm
Benedicta,
Hope that you have got over your bit of anoyance … we did get a bit off thread … to be honest though I learnt a deeper appreciation of Opus Dei ( even if that one or more of their priests did go off-side re condom use…. if they really did)
Back on topic. thank you for explaining what is covered in the study of liturgy … I had thought that it was mainly about the celebration of Holy Mass and all that pertains there-to. After reading your comment 43 I went to the Catechism of the Catholic Church and to a website where I found this …
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s1c2a1.htm
There is so much there about it …it will give me plenty of prayerful reading so am grateful to you for your explanation which sent me hunting , we never stop learning though do we….. I am sure I mentioned before that this old girl is a slow learner!
Shalom,
Mrs Mac
Teresina, I am puzzled. Are you saying that a failure actively to promote the EF Mass is equivalent to modernism? This seems a little surprising to me.
jj
JJ I and others are asking why, when the Holy Father has put out his Motu Proprio, that, being obedient to the Holy Father, Opus Dei has not promoted the EF Mass? In fact, if you read on Rarote Caeli some say some Opus Dei priests have spoken against it. So why is that the case?
But JJ do you think it is modernism for liberal groups not to promote the EF Latin Mass?
Benedicta, I see no problem with women teaching liturgy anywhere but in the seminary. As I said earlier, I think women in the seminary is a no/no and that goes for women studying in the seminaries as well. As I’ve stated, for obvious reasons, traditionally women have not been in the seminary. Afterall, it’s true purpose is for priestly formation not lay formation. I think good Catholic women should take a step back from perhaps promoting themselves into roles in seminaries. There are many roles they can take on. The young woman mentioned and yourself, I have no doubt uphold the teachings of the Church, but the idea of women in seminaries was first promoted by the liberal agenda and what you are promoting is helping to perpetuate that agenda. Behind that agenda is women priests and women deacons and if you look on the internet you will find the modern nuns we were complaining about a few months ago are the very same advocates of women teaching in the seminary – in fact they take surveys of the various seminaries to see how many women are in fact teaching there. My personal opinion is you can’t have a dollar both ways – it doesn’t work.
DV, post 44, here are several responses from Catholic ethicists who say the Opus Dei priest Fr Rhonheimer’s expressed views on condom use to prevent Aids is erroneous. One of the arguments is that condoms prevents sexual union, which natural planning does not and that condom use to prevent Aids is a contraceptive.
Dr Janet Smith
http://www.osv.com/tabid/7621/itemid/7298/A-response-to-Father-Rhonheimer-on-condoms.aspx
http://www.osv.com/tabid/7621/itemid/7331/Janet-Smith-responds-to-Fr-Rhonheimers-counter.aspx
Fr John Esposito
http://www.uccuyosl.edu.ar/pdf/cult_rel/hiv.pdf
http://christopherblosser.blogspot.co.nz/2010/12/pope-benedict-fr-rhonheimer-janet-smith.html
AN OPEN LETTER TO FR. MARTIN RHONHEIMER
by Luke Gormally (Director Emeritus, Linacre Centre for Healthcare Ethics, London, Oxford)
Dear Fr Martin,
I hope you may agree that the time has passed when it would be appropriate to resume the private and friendly email exchanges we had in 2004/2005. Your recent interventions, published by Sandro Magister and “Our Sunday Visitor”, following the observations of Pope Benedict about the use of condoms as a prophylactic measure, amount in effect to renewed public advocacy of your point of view. That point of view originally found public expression in an article in “The Tablet” (10 July 2004) about which you say: “I was informed that the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, then headed by Cardinal Ratzinger, had no problem with it or its arguments”.
It is unclear what is strictly implied by this statement. Are we to assume that the Congregation formally considered your article in the light of advice from its consultors and agreed there was no problem with it? Many will think that that is what your statement implies. And if they do, then a viewpoint which I continue to think profoundly subversive of the Church’s teaching on sexual ethics will appear to have acquired authoritative endorsement. There is clearly an urgent need now for the Congregation publicly to clarify its position.
A significant body of moral theologians and moral philosophers submitted some time ago a detailed critique of your position to the Holy See. It is a pity that that critique is not in the public domain and that I am the person identified as a principal critic of your position. Though I lack the distinction of many of your critics, the public prominence I have been given inclines me in face of the renewed advocacy of your position to reiterate the principal points of the critique which I advanced in 2005.As you know, my critique did not rest on any claim that the use of a condom is necessarily contraceptive. Acknowledging that, however, does not mean that the teaching of “Humanae vitae” is irrelevant to this debate, for section 12 of that encyclical states a quite basic principle of the Church’s sexual ethic. It is that there is “an inseparable connection – established by God and not to be broken by human choice – between the unitive meaning and the procreative meaning which are both inherent in the conjugal act”. If the exercise of sexual capacity is to be chaste it should be marital, and to count as marital it must be reproductive type behaviour, “’per se’ apt for the generation of offspring” (Canon 1061). Any type of behaviour which “qua” behavioural performance is of its nature inapt for the generation of offspring cannot be the bearer of ‘procreative meaning’. It cannot therefore unite a couple in the way proper to marriage. Intercourse with a condom is of its nature inapt for the generation of offspring. It is a minimal condition of intercourse being of the reproductive kind that a man ejaculates into his wife’s reproductive tract. It does not make sense to say that a couple engaging in intercourse with a condom intend marital intercourse. One can intend only what is in principle realisable, and marital intercourse is not realisable through behaviour of a non-reproductive kind.
What seemed to me radically subversive about your position in 2004 (with which the CDF “had no problem”) is the claim that provided a couple have a prophylactic rather than contraceptive intent in engaging in condomistic intercourse their intercourse is marital. That amounted to saying that essentially non-reproductive type behaviour can be marital, a thesis that is inconsistent with the basic norm of chaste sexual behaviour. Though in your OSV interview you say that you did not at the time “sufficiently take into account” the kind of objection I have stated to your position, you also say you remain unsure whether this objection is compelling. And it is significant that your reason today for not encouraging a couple to use a condom is because of what you take to be required by the virtue of justice (that “one abstain completely from dangerous acts”) and not at all because of what is required by the virtue of chastity (“I would not think their intercourse to be what moral theologians call a sin ‘against nature’ equal to masturbation or sodomy”).
Condomistic intercourse as essentially non-reproductive sexual behaviour is precisely what moral theologians call a sin “against nature”. And sins “against nature” are more deeply contrary to the virtue of chastity than simple fornication. It seems to me that you misinterpret the motives of those who object to the idea that it would be better for an adulterer, a fornicator or a prostitute to wear a condom in having intercourse, as you propose. What is at issue is not a concern to tell people how to perform intrinsically evil acts. It is rather a concern not to endorse the ‘common sense’, worldly wisdom, which you seem to endorse in circumstances in which people cannot be persuaded to embrace chaste behaviour. For your admirable desire to persuade people “to abstain from immoral behaviour altogether” will hardly be advanced by representing as preferable ‘sins against nature’ which are more deeply corrupting of a person’s sexual dispositions.
A concern for justice is indeed important in sexual relationships but the claims of justice ought never to be secured at the expense of subverting other moral dispositions. That is the very least that is implied in the ancient thesis of the unity of the virtues.
We should be clear what is meant by that rather vague phrase “humanising sexuality”. It cannot be taken to mean, if it is to be consistent with the Church’s teaching, persuading people to make their sexual activity the expression of just any kind of “loving concern” for others. It means converting them to a chaste way of life, which surely requires that one is unambiguous about the need to abstain from sexual activity outside marriage and within marriage to engage only in such sexual intercourse as is “inseparably unitive and procreative in its significance”.
I have addressed this open letter to you in the hope that a brief presentation of a counter-position to yours will serve to bring home the need for an authoritative clarification of the issues. For the CDF’s apparent endorsement of your 2004 article is troubling.
With kind regards and all good wishes,
Yours sincerely,
Luke Gormally
London, December 15, 2010
T
have you seen the setup at Good Shepherd College?
http://www.gsc.ac.nz/
These dear learned woman have made sacrifices to achieve qualifications to build up the Church They do not teach at the seminary but at the College where you and I can also be educated and many are.
There are women involved at the actual seminary which I agree with you is wrong, but that is a different matter from teaching at GSC!
It is simply not the function of Opus Dei to promote the EF and your obsession with the EF is clouding your judgement. Others can promote the EF and should.
Pray for Wisdom!
T
are you asking me to choose between the Pope and some ‘Catholic ethists’, if so I know where I stand.
Condoms are not evil per se but it is the way they are used that is intrisically evil if the primary intention is to ‘contracept’. I am not sure that your ethists are considering the scenario that I have put?
Pray for the Church!
DV, why is it not Opus Dei’s function to offer the Mass under both forms? They are able to offer Mass in Spanish in Hamilton once a month, so why not the EF Latin Mass or even an OF Latin Mass?
I think you need to pray for wisdom, especially where the promoting of condoms is concerned, for your judgment is definitely clouded. The Pope expressed merely an opinion that some say was influenced by Opus Dei. The Vatican scrambled to explain that the Pope has not changed the Church’s teaching that contraception is intrinsically evil and that is what a condom is – dress it up as much as you like. You have obviously been influenced by Fr Ronheimer’s erroneous comments. Condom use has been supported by the modernist Cardinal Marini and Bishop Cullinane. Surely, that should be telling you something? And as a Catholic worth our salt – unless you are indeed a modernist – I would expect you to be pushing for the EF Latin Mass.
Dei Verbum
That is how I understand it.
Teresina
but the idea of women in seminaries was first promoted by the liberal agenda and what you are promoting is helping to perpetuate that agenda.
I think what we need is the right women in right relationship with the Church. Lay people attending GSC aren’t in the seminary they just study alongside the seminarians. The support for women priests would last about 2 secs at GSC.
This link below is the faculty line up for Cardinal Pell’s revamped seminary in Sydney. Two women on the staff.
http://www.sgs.org.au/who-is-going-with-us
I don’t think Cardinal Pell is heading for a liberal agenda in this way.
The Liturgy paper is informed by Sacramentum Concilium. Worth a read.
Do try to stay on topic people.
Certainly, the condom debate is outside the parameters of the thread.
Marty, just a quick response to Benedicta. Benedicta, Good Shepherd College was set up principally for the training of priests and was an amalgamation of the resources of the two seminaries. We have to agree to differ on this. On the other side of the coin, for obvious reasons, I do not agree that young men should be involved in courses for the training of religious sisters. And I’m sure that the Novice Mistress would know why. If we want to increase the numbers of young men through the seminary then logically it is not going to be helped by the presence of young women in the seminary/college, and I don’t think that diocesean funds should be going to pay for tuition fees or support for anyone other than seminarians, priests or religious.
T
I do not promote condoms and neither does Opus Dei.
Dont slander good people just because you have a bent to the EF (which I applaud BTW)
I think the Church has better things to occupy itself with now
http://en.radiovaticana.va/articolo.asp?c=663815
Pray for B16!
Teresina (#47)
I do not think the question of promoting the EF Mass constitutes modernism. Liberal groups may promote modernism, but I don’t think that their failure to promote the EF Mass is modernism. I myself give thanks for the EF Mass; attend rarely (because there is none close to me, and because, in any case, I think the parish principle of very great importance).
I am still interested in the answer to my original question:
jj