Legacy of Obama?

Marty wonders how history will remember President Obama.

Obama promotes, funds, facilitates, and encourages women (and healthcare providers) to murder children. Should he be brought to justice? He wants people to murder their children, should their children get in the way of their futures and ‘happiness’.

He has said so. He supports child abuse and infanticide. He said he wants his own daughters to be able to murder their children if they get pregnant, because he doesn’t want them ‘punished with a child’ in their younger life. He said that he would support his daughters in the murder of his own grandchildren. Is an individual such as this fit to govern a country?

He is so sincerely convinced of his infanticidal ideas that he is willing to force the Church to participate in his extended programs around ‘women’s health’, which includes paying for abortifacient contraception. He is brainwashed - and worse – will force his brainwashing upon others from his position of influence and power. He is the worst type of oppressor of women and children. 
He is an avowed supporter of all forms of abortion, including partial-birth abortion, and he says that he wants to continue funding it everywhere around the world because he considers that women have the right to choose the eliminate their children, if they decide it’s for their own ‘health benefits’. Hitler did a similar thing: get rid of the Jews so that the Germans can flourish in their own cultural health and spread their grand Third Reich for the benefit of all. He managed to ensnare other Europeans to collaborate with him in eliminating the Jews, by selling their plan as ‘resettlement’, or in this case, ‘health care’.
Obama and most of his close aids think that they have to export their vision for all, a.k.a,  abortion, to Third World countries; so that all can move into a free and updated vision of liberty, security, and self-determination. Hilary Clinton has said exactly that.
Obama is for child abuse. He is for abortion. He is a mass murderer. Hitler didn’t personally murder that many people. He let his lackeys do it. He is still a mass murderer, just like Obama. He is for the wanton killing of a particular minority in society. He is happy if you want to get rid of your child if it gets in the way of your success in life. He is the new Hitler. He says that if you don’t want your unborn baby, throw it out, and he’ll help you pay for that with federal money. Not only that, he’ll provide the facilities and medical centers for you, and he’ll make sure that everybody else, no matter who they are, has to help you murder your baby by paying for it in their taxes. He is a sick man with a sick view on life.
He may dress differently to Hitler, but he is similar. He may speak a different language, but he is similar. He doesn’t have a funny little mustache, but he is certainly on about similar killing campaigns. He isn’t using tanks, machine guns, or gas to spread his anti-baby ideology, but he is using every other agency at his disposal: the modern media, modern science, scare tactics, foreign aid programs, bribery money; and of course Planned Parenthood, his most trustworthy henchmen.
Planned Parenthood is like the SS. Its members are his agents who do his dirty work. They make it seem all medical, and hygienic, and clean, and sanitary behind their clinical walls and inside their death camps. But really, all they do is tear little babies apart inside their mothers’ wombs, and then throw them in the bin; and Obama sits back, applauds, and pays them millions of dollars to do it, so that his women constituents can get rid of a particular sector of their family. He is the great solution provider.
The unborn are the new Jews. Obama is Hitler, and Planned Parenthood are the SS.
From LifeSiteNews recently: 
Barack Obama has doubled down on his promise to stand up for abortion-on-demand this campaign season, telling a convention of female bloggers ‘I’m not going to give any ground’ on ‘vital services like Planned Parenthood’.
The president spoke to the 2012 ‘BlogHer’ conference on Thursday by video:
He said:

I’m not going to give any ground to those who would deny women their own health care choices.

Health care choices = propaganda for ‘gassing their babies’; or as the Nazis said ‘resettlement’.

Notice how, like the Nazis, they change the language which reflects the reality: e.g. instead of extermination which is the reality, they say resettlement. It’s a sign that they have some sense that what they doing is wrong. They have an inkling that it is not right so they try to hide it. It’s similar in the abortion industry. They say ‘Health Care Services’ which covers many things for women, and inside that they smuggle abortion, sterilization, and contraception, as if these things are diseases which require prevention, so that people start thinking of these ‘services’ as wonderful aids and helps for women in their health difficulties. Nothing could be further from truth. 

Obama is essentially saying: 

‘I’m not going to give any ground to those who would deny women their right to ‘resettle’ their own children.’

Listen to the language: ‘I’m going to fight those who would want to stop this ‘resettlement’, this gassing, this extermination, this eradication, this extirpation, of a ‘problem’ which gets in the way of their happiness.’

He promised to fight … that is, those who disagree are his enemies, are the opponents of his wonderful vision, his health care plan, his final solution for the liberation of women, the new ‘Germany’.

He will fight…

…folks who plan to turn back the clock. They promise to take away access to health care and contraception. They talk about getting rid of vital services like Planned Parenthood.

He is utterly convinced that he is doing women a favour, just like Hitler was convinced that eradicating the Jews was good for Germany and Europe. Hitler thought he was doing the world a favour. Obama thinks that he is helping women by helping them murder their children. That’s a special type of sick. But as I have already alluded to, there is some type of interior recognition that something is not quite right when they have to reword what they are doing to say “health care”. They know exactly what they doctors are doing in order to provide this ‘health care’ but they are not interested in the reality. They only want a quick solution, a hidden solution, to the problem of new life and the responsibilities which it demands.

At another moment, Obama said:

Mr. Romney wants to get rid of funding for Planned Parenthood. I think that’s a bad idea. I’ve got two daughters. I want them to control their own health care choices. We’re not going backwards, we’re going forwards.

And again, when asked about his public and well-known support for abortion, previously (before election) he said:

I’ve got two daughters, 9 years old and 6 years old.  I am going to teach them first of all about values and morals. But if they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby….

Those daughters are now 14 and 11.

Someone should ask Obama, in front of his daughters, whether he would have aborted them had he got Michelle Obama pregnant in a difficult situation.

Planned Parenthood is the largest abortion provider in the USA. They have the biggest baby murder mills in the world and Obama is their biggest supporter.

We should not remember this president, in future years, with fondness. 

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    Comments: 75

    1. humanist August 7, 2012 at 6:33 pm

      This would have to be one of the ugliest and least honest blog posts I ave ever read.

      Someone should ask Obama, in front of his daughters, whether he would have aborted them had he got Michelle Obama pregnant in a difficult situation.

      Ask me. I have 2 wonderful children, but would have agreed to an abortion in the blink of an eye if it was to save my wife’s life, or if it had been a pregnancy prior to use being ready for a child, or another child. And guess what, it would make no difference to the aborted foetus as since it would never have lived it would never have known its fate, the same fate that happens every day to millions foetus’s when they spontaneously abort.

      There is nothing special, there is nothing sacred, about a bundle of cells in a womb. It is after birth, that life begins and we cherish our children.

      Marty. Here’s a newsflash, stop worrying about women’s sexuality (I know it threatens you) and stop worrying about women’s reproductive health, and put your energies in to improving the lot of the living. Millions of children live in poverty, disease and starvation, let’s help them before adding any more, eh?

    2. Abenader August 7, 2012 at 7:22 pm

      Humanist
      “It is after birth, that life begins and we cherish our children”.
      So I guess you never touched your wife’s pregnant ‘stomach’ when baby(s) were kicking? You never put your ear to your wife’s ‘bulge’ to listen to something moving around inside?
      Of course, you could not have because that was not life inside your wife’s womb.

      “And guess what, it would make no difference to the aborted foetus as since it would never have lived..”
      How do you know this?

    3. Helens Bay August 7, 2012 at 7:47 pm

      Marty,
      I cannot believe the Hate expressed from a so called Catholic.Pathetic

    4. Teresina August 7, 2012 at 8:36 pm

      A great post, Marty. Our society murders millions of babies a year, the most vulnerable and helpless babies in the womb, and we need to be reminded of that.

      I think a lot of people accept abortion because they don’t know the facts about the development of the baby in the womb and only regard it as a bit of tissue that doesn’t feel anything. However, the brain and the spinal cord form during the embryonic stage and so obviously the baby does feel pain:

      http://familydoctor.org/familydoctor/en/pregnancy-newborns/fetal-health/your-babys-development-the-first-trimester.html

      “Some of the highlights of your baby’s development during the embryonic stage include:

      •Nervous system. This is one of the first things to develop during the embryonic stage. This means your baby’s brain, spinal cord and nerves form during this stage.”

      Tests have shown that the baby moves away from a needle inserted into the embryonic sac.
      “many obstetricians have told me that under ultrasound they have seen babies move away from the intruding needle or even try to push it aside.” http://birthpsychology.com/free-article/psycho-technology-pregnancy-and-labor

      All methods of abortion are barbaric: with the earliest form of abortion, the suction method, the baby is torn apart limb from limb.

      I imagine that you, Humanist, are one of these people who sob and sigh over the loss of a beached whale or tremble in fear at the possible loss of a species of plankton that none of us are ever likely to miss. And yet you say you “would have agreed to an abortion in the blink of an eye if it was to save my wife’s life, or if it had been a pregnancy prior to us being ready for a child, or another child” So you would have killed your “2 wonderful children” if the timing had not suited you. What kind of love for your children is that? A selfish love at best. Your views and Obama’s do resemble Hitler in deciding who should live, who should die, who is expendable.

      Some may remember Des Dalgety, a Wellington lawyer well-known for leading the pro-life movement in the fight against the liberalisation of the abortion laws in New Zealand in the 70s and 80s. He wrote a paper on abortion which he presented at a Medical/Legal Council in Ghent in 1979. That paper traced the development of abortion in Germany. One of the points he made was that the Germans first legalised abortion, then euthanised their mental patients and then it was only a hop, skip and a jump for them to move on to exterminate the Jews because he said that once you lose respect for life at any stage nothing is sacrosanct any longer.

      So that was the problem with Hitler, now Obama and so with Humanist … they have lost respect for life and for them nothing is sancrosanct any longer …

    5. Teresina August 7, 2012 at 9:05 pm

      Helens Bay, Marty is merely telling it like it is – the hate is on the side of Obama, Hitler and those who support legalised killing of the unborn – I trust that doesn’t include you?

    6. defende nos August 7, 2012 at 9:09 pm

      Marty, do look into the National Defence Authorisation Act. It’s Obama’s Enabling Act.

    7. Valerie August 7, 2012 at 9:25 pm

      This video from Mr Voris highlights all the things that Obama is doing. Watch the part where the text of the petition scrolls over screen.

      Mr Rethul,

      Thank you for your post. I agree.

      Mr Humanist,

      Your name is a sad contradiction if you would have gladly aborted your children. That’s a sick thing to be proud of. If they were just a bunch of cells, then how are they any different now?

      Mr(s) Bay,

      Why do you say hate? Isn’t Obama hating children and women by helping them to damage themselves and murder others?

      One normally hates evil, because one loves good. One hates what attacks the good normally. I think that Mr Rethul is right in his hatred of abortion, hatred of murder, hatred of the lies which surround such a practice. Good one Mr Rethul for saying it clearly.

      Mrs Teresina,

      Thank you for your comments, and thank you for those links.

      Val.

    8. bamac August 7, 2012 at 9:27 pm

      These comments in the link are a bit old but I only just came upon them and found them interesting… wonder if any of you will too!

      http://mandenomusings.wordpress.com/2010/03/27/barack-obamacare-and-helen-clark-the-parallels/
      Shalom

    9. Teresina August 7, 2012 at 11:36 pm

      Abenader, Valerie and bamac, thanks for your links, and what a revelation from Michael Voris. It will be a great let down to faithful Catholics if Cardinal Dolan goes ahead with this invitation to Obama – right up there with the infamous invitation to Obama from Notre Dame University. With the university’s past record we could hardly expect much better from them, but Cardinal Dolan … I would expect him to be a man of principle. Apparently the Cardinal’s office has not confirmed Obama has been issued with an invitation but neither have they denied it, which is of concern. As President of the Bishops’ Conference, it would be bad form for him to be seen sitting cheek by jowl with Obama at dinner and certainly not the sort of leadership the faithful would hope and expect from him.

    10. Valerie August 8, 2012 at 8:46 am

      Mrs Tersina,

      Yes, I hope it all gets shut down. It will be a sad double standard if he is invited to this gala dinner. Cdl Dolan will end up looking like a chump.

      Mr(s) Helens Bay,

      Do you believe that anything is evil?

      Val.

    11. Helens Bay August 8, 2012 at 11:10 am

      Val,
      I believe abortion is evil.
      I believe to have hate in your heart is evil, like your good friend Marty has in his heart.
      Cardinal Dolan is acting as Jesus Christ would have done in charity and certainly not as you in judgement

    12. P.O.B August 8, 2012 at 11:14 am

      Very interesting post and well worth the read. Thank you Marty!

      How a father can say that he would happily murder his unborn child is beyond belief. Even more than this to deny his life by saying he is a clump of cells.

      Sad day for fatherhood

    13. bamac August 8, 2012 at 12:03 pm

      Helens Bay ,

      You insist on accrediting Marty with a hatred that does not exist in his heart or feelings as you claim….. Marty is quoting the words of Obama and commenting on his actions and plans…. we all are are concerned about the way this President is pushing for more and more killing of the defenceless unborn … just as you say you are too, and for his spreading of the availability of contraceptives not only in his own country but internationally as well.

      Shalom

    14. Marty Rethul August 8, 2012 at 1:02 pm

      Helens Bay:

      I believe to have hate in your heart is evil, like your good friend Marty has in his heart.

      Really?

      You may think you know more of my heart than I do, but you can hardly expect me to agree with you.

      How about dealing with what I’ve said, and engaging properly?

    15. Valerie August 8, 2012 at 1:47 pm

      Mr(s) Helens Bay,

      I believe to have hate in your heart is evil, like your good friend Marty has in his heart.

      Maybe you should address the plank in your own eye.

      By highlighting the truth of Obama and his butchering ways, Mr Rethul does not have hatred towards Obama, or hatred in his heart; just as when Jesus spoke clearly and directly to the Pharisees, does not mean that Jesus hated them, or had hatred in his heart towards them. He hated their pride, so sure, because it cut them off from mercy. One hates what hinders one from attaining the good, see the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and St Thomas Aquinas.

      1765 There are many passions. The most fundamental passion is love, aroused by the attraction of the good. Love causes a desire for the absent good and the hope of obtaining it; this movement finds completion in the pleasure and joy of the good possessed. The apprehension of evil causes hatred, aversion, and fear of the impending evil; this movement ends in sadness at some present evil, or in the anger that resists it.

      Mr(s) Helens Bay,

      Cardinal Dolan is acting as Jesus Christ would have done in charity and certainly not as you in judgement

      Maybe. Jesus certainly dined with sinners; and had deep mercy upon anybody, even the Pharisees.

      But he didn’t say to Judas: “After you have betrayed me, come to the upper room, and we’ll celebrate your betrayal as if nothing happened, to such an extent, that the other apostles will be so scandalized, that they’ll think that nothing matters anymore, and that the truth of the situation is nothing.”

      Mr(s) Helens Bay,

      I bet you have been one of those people who has attacked Pius XII for apparently doing nothing to stop Hitler (which of course is all wrong anyway). In fact, had Pius XII invited Hitler to dinner during WWII, you would have denounced him as a traitor and said “How dare he be so callous towards the Jews who have been slaughtered.”

      But when Cdl Dolan invites your hero Obama to dinner, you’ll invoke Jesus as an example.

      Let me ask you a question: Would you have invited Hitler to dinner during WWII, and put on a lavish welcome for him, as if nothing had been happening?

      I enjoy Marty’s posts because they speak the truth; and I would be happy to have Marty as a friend. I’d be happy to have you as a friend Mr(s) Helen, even a good friend, but you may not want me.

      Val.

    16. Helens Bay August 8, 2012 at 3:16 pm

      Val,
      I`ve read and listened to the words of Popes from PiusX11 to the present and never have any spoken in the repugnant way of this post and many,many evil deeds have been committed during this time.
      I invite you to ask your local Bishop or PP if they would these words in their Sunday homily.
      If I become your friend will you let me into the secret of “mind reading?”

    17. Chris Sullivan August 8, 2012 at 4:00 pm

      I agree with Helen’s Bay. While there are many problems with the Obama presidency and abortion is certainly one of them, Marty’s post is not only inaccurate in a number of points but comes across as strident and uncharitable. It is a classic example of how NOT to preach the Gospel of Life and how to alienate those we are supposed to be converting.

      To quote just one example from the many false witnesses Marty has given above, by the use of selective quoting, what the President actually said was not about abortion but about contraception :

      So when it comes specifically to HIV/AIDS, the most important prevention is education, which should include — which should include abstinence education and teaching the children — teaching children, you know, that sex is not something casual. But it should also include — it should also include other, you know, information about contraception because, look, I’ve got two daughters, 9 years old and 6 years old. I am going to teach them first of all about values and morals.

      But if they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby. I don’t want them punished with an STD at the age of 16.

      http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0803/29/bb.01.html

      Thou shalt not bear a false witness.

      Unlike Obama, who made sure that taxpayer-funded abortion would not be part of his Affordable Care Act, Mitt Romney in Massachusetts included taxpayer funding of direct abortion in his health care legislation.

      God Bless

    18. bamac August 8, 2012 at 4:08 pm

      Helens Bay,

      After reading your comments about the hate you claimed was in Marty’s heart, I thought you felt you already had superior secret talent of mind reading

      Please tell what wording in Marty’s post you found so repugnent

      Being Frank was set up to discus issues surely, not criticise commenters … what then are your thoughts on the content of today’s post?

      Shalom

    19. Helens Bay August 8, 2012 at 5:01 pm

      Bamac,
      As Chris has already said it was strident and uncharitable.
      The Holy Father has lived through world wars and lived in Germany during the Holacoust but has never ever used language as used in the post.
      But don`t take my word for it,why not show it to your local PP or Bishop for guidance.
      Abortion is evil along with many other great evils in the world too numerous to mention,but they will not be resolved by hate.

    20. JimmyG August 8, 2012 at 5:17 pm

      It is a classic example of how NOT to preach the Gospel of Life and how to alienate those we are supposed to be converting.

      I found this post to be accurate and insightful as to what really is going on.

      Bishop Jenkey, of Peroria, used similar images to Stalin and Hitler with Obama in his recent homily.

      Within the analogy to Hitler that Marty has used, I think that there are other parallels to draw upon. The way that Germans allowed themselves to be duped by what Hitler was doing, and how they didn’t properly judge what was happening, and followed along, and didn’t stand up and stop it, is very similar to what is going on now with the culture of death, and how so many Christians will not allow themselves to see the reality, have followed along, and bought into a lot of the rhetoric used by many pro-death people.

      And when other Christians say it how it really is, these blind Christians cry foul and think that it’s too extreme, or that it’ll do more harm, or that we should try and work quietly behind the scenes.

      The time has come to fight and fight openly. If we don’t, we’ll be washed down the drain with the rest of the garbage.

      I even think that Christians who don’t want to stand up for Life, are playing into the hands of the enemy of Life.

      Bishop Cambpell seems to have realized this and is fighting hard in the deep south.

      But really, how much more harm can be done?

      If we don’t actually stand up and say how it is, we’ll slide into a similar totalitarian regime that Germany did. It’ll be different, but so much will be the same.

      There were only a few people who really stood up against the German machine, and one was Churchill. People ridiculed him when he was predicting what Hitler would do and become and where things were going; and others said that he was going too far, that he had too much rhetoric in his styles and would damage efforts at peace. But Churchill was onto it.

      He saw what was going on, and he was one of the few.

      Chris, for years on BeingFrank, people told you and told you about how bad Obama would be. You defended him and wouldn’t hear any different. Now he is fulfilling all his promises that many people saw coming. But you wouldn’t open your mind or heart. You were so blind. I remember reading post after post at BF where you fought tooth and nail against those who spoke the truth about Obama and warned against his death camp mentality. You thought he was going to be the great redeemer of the USA.

      I remember you trying to tell people that it’s ok to vote for pro-abortion politicians, like Obama, because he’ll really reduce the abortion over time.

      You have defended and defended and defended Obama over the years, especially in the lead up to the election, that I don’t see how you have any credibility to speak about him or his policies. So many people here at Being-Frank argued and argued with you, to try and show you how bad Obama will be as President; and how he would be the most pro-death President in history. He has now become that, and you supported him all the way.

      Also, he is now reducing religious liberty in such a way that is frightening. He is not only pro-death, anti-life, and anti religion, he is starting to force his views upon others in such a way that he is becoming a dictator of a new socialism. The Pope has spoken about this so many times now: He has just written a special letter to the Knights of Columbus supporting them for their fight against Obama.

      And now, when people tell us what he is doing, you still can’t accept open criticism of him. Time for you to accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour and abandon you master Obama.

      Chris, you of all people are one who alienates and preaches badly, if this blog is anything to go by. I wonder what your preaching will be like in Church?

      You divide people on this blog like no other, and have an incredible history here of peddling the most bizarre ideas I have every read from a Christian. If fact, at times, I have often wondered whether you truly are a Christian – so bizarre are your ideas and “theology”.

      You think you’re a Muslim, Buddhist, Catholic, and Jew. And astonishingly, you are now an ordained deacon. I would have thought that there are particular things that one has to believe before one is ordained. Unless you have not divulged these things to your bishop?

      You have no real credibility here among many people.

      You are the worst person to be talking about alienating people. Your ideas are often ridiculous and at odds with the Gospel of Life, and have caused such disagreement, division, outrage, and scandal, here at beingfrank over the years, that you are hardly one to be talking about how to preach effectively.

      Chris, are you not one who has misquoted, mislead, selectively quoted, and twisted meanings of things in the past? You have done it so many times in the history of BeingFrank that you don’t have much credibility in accusing others of doing it.

      You’ve become like the boy who cried wolf.

      But if they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby.

      To me it is obvious that he is talking about both; and that means, if the contraception fails, he will want them to abort, because the baby is a ‘punishment’. A lot of contraception is abortive anyway.

      It’s clear that Obama would support his daughters aborting. Look at what he has said about abortion all through his time in office.

      Let me ask, from these words of Jesus, can we say that there is hatred in the heart of Jesus? (Matt 23)

      Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You lock the kingdom of heaven before human beings. You do not enter yourselves, nor do you allow entrance to those trying to enter.

      Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You traverse sea and land to make one convert, and when that happens you make him a child of Gehenna twice as much as yourselves.

      Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘If one swears by the temple, it means nothing, but if one swears by the gold of the temple, one is obligated.’ Blind fools, which is greater, the gold, or the temple that made the gold sacred? And you say, ‘If one swears by the altar, it means nothing, but if one swears by the gift on the altar, one is obligated.’

      You blind ones, which is greater, the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? One who swears by the altar swears by it and all that is upon it; one who swears by the temple swears by it and by him who dwells in it; one who swears by heaven swears by the throne of God and by him who is seated on it.

      Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You pay tithes of mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier things of the law: judgment and mercy and fidelity. [But] these you should have done, without neglecting the others.

      Blind guides, who strain out the gnat and swallow the camel!

      Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You cleanse the outside of cup and dish, but inside they are full of plunder and self-indulgence.

      Blind Pharisee!, cleanse first the inside of the cup, so that the outside also may be clean.

      Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You are like whitewashed tombs, which appear beautiful on the outside, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and every kind of filth.

      Even so, on the outside you appear righteous, but inside you are filled with hypocrisy and evildoing.

      Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the memorials of the righteous, and you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have joined them in shedding the prophets’ blood.’ Thus you bear witness against yourselves that you are the children of those who murdered the prophets; now fill up what your ancestors measured out!

      You serpents, you brood of vipers, how can you flee from the judgment of Gehenna?

      Therefore, behold, I send to you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and pursue from town to town, so that there may come upon you all the righteous blood shed upon earth, from the righteous blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar.

    21. Teresina August 8, 2012 at 9:35 pm

      JimmyG, having read Chris Sullivan’s posts over the last couple of years, I fully endorse what you’ve said here that Chris: “you divide people on this blog like no other, and have an incredible history here of peddling the most bizarre ideas I have every read from a Christian. If fact, at times, I have often wondered whether you truly are a Christian – so bizarre are your ideas and “theology”.

      Chris and Helens Bay should be aware that there is such a thing as righteous anger – a simple explanation for them can be found on EWTN which clarifies how war and anger can be justified for a Christian:

      “Righteous versus Unrighteous Anger (2302-3)

      Anger is a desire for revenge. Anger is the passion (emotion) by which a man reacts to evil, real or apparent, and seeks vindication of his rights, that is, justice. By itself the passion is neither moral or immoral, but becomes so by reason or its being ordered or disordered – that is, reasonable according to the circumstances. An ordered anger is directed to a legitimate object, and, with an appropriate degree of vehemence. An inordinate anger is directed either to an illegitimate object, or, with an unreasonable vehemence. As St. Thomas Aquinas notes, vice may be by defect, as well as excess. So, the presence of evil should provoke a righteous anger, which if absent constitutes a sinful insensibility.

      Consider the just anger of the Lord to the presence in the Temple of the money-changers and the action He took (John 2:13-17). Provoked by this offense against His Father, Jesus formed whips and drove them from the Temple. Righteous anger, and the acts which flow from it, intend the correction of vice (both for the good of the individual sinner and the common good), the restoring of the order of justice disturbed by sin, and the restraint of further evil.”.

      So we have the evil of abortion and the evil perpetrated by those, like Obama (a self-proclaimed Christian), promoting it, which Marty rightly draws attention to. That evil should provoke a righteous anger in us which if absent, we are told, constitutes “a sinful insensibility”. So to me that leaves Chris and Helens Bay by their criticism of Marty’s righteous indignation to be suffering from “a sinful insensibility”.

    22. Valerie August 9, 2012 at 10:27 am

      Obama vows to continue his promotion of ‘women’s health’
      http://news.msn.co.nz/worldnews/8513306/obama-wages-birth-control-fight

      Contraception, used to prevent pregnancy, is an act which is intrinsically evil, and Obama is the man to promote it to all women. His government is promoting an evil as if it’s the solution to all evil. A kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. Evil for evil – that is Obama.

      Another one worth watching

      Val.

    23. bamac August 9, 2012 at 12:44 pm

      Will the same situation happen here in NZ at some stage I wonder?…… thanks for those links Val.

      shalom

    24. Helens Bay August 9, 2012 at 4:04 pm

      Bamac,Val,Marty,
      Your slanderous hateful exhortations remind me a lot of the words of right wing extremists of the past :”Crucify Him!,Crucify Him!”

    25. Valerie August 9, 2012 at 4:05 pm

      Ooooh, look, Bishop Cambpell might offend people by saying “culture of death”.

      He might be undermining the whole Gospel of Life! He might be going too far.
      Maybe he is full of hate towards those who are trying to set up abortion for women in the south.
      He might drive women further from the Church.

      CathNews
      Vatican Insider

      Or, by proclaiming the truth as it is, and standing for it, he might actually make a difference and help stop this “clinic” from being set up, and thereby save some lives.

      Val.

    26. Valerie August 9, 2012 at 4:13 pm

      No Mr(s) Helen.

      Jesus stood for the truth. Obama is not standing for the truth.
      If you can’t see the difference, then there is no point in discussing with you.

      Obama should be brought to justice and appropriately punished for his evil work of helping to murder millions of babies.
      Jesus was innocent, and was crucified for standing for the truth.
      The Pharisees didn’t like their control on the religion being threatened.

      Obama, is like the Pharisees.
      He will now persecute those who stand against and threaten his “health care” mandate, by crucifying them financially.

      Those who stand for the truth against Obama, will be crucified, just like Christ who stood for the truth.

      Obama is the spiritual ly dead one who only wants to do it his way, like the Pharisee.
      The Church is Christ, trying to enlighten him and bring him to the truth.

      Truth, and the Justice of the Cause are the dividing line.

      An analogy:
      It’s the difference between a true martyr of Christ and a Muslim terrorist.
      Both die for a cause they believe in, and sincerely adhere to.

      One of the causes is truth, goodness, and justice, and mercy.
      The other is just the imagination of the fanatical believer.

      The Church will be crucified by Obama and his henchmen for not following his new socialism.
      Obama, will be corrected by the truth as preached to him by the Church.

      Obama is Herod.
      The Church correcting him in the truth, is St John the Baptist.

      And those who say it clearly, like Mr Rethul, risk having their heads cut off by those who don’t like the truth being proclaimed.

      Someone will whisper in Herod’s ear, to bring Truth-Speaker’s heads to him on a plate.

      And who will Herod get to help him? Christians who think that John the Baptist (the church) was to strident in the truth, went too far, was too extreme, unnecessarily angered the religious authorities, challenged the Roman Empire, lived too far from the people, and who denounced injustice clearly.

      Val.

    27. bamac August 9, 2012 at 4:25 pm

      Val,

      Maybe the good Bishop Campbell is, what certain people would call right wing conservative?

      HB,

      where is the slander in what has been reported in our comments?

      Shalom

    28. Helens Bay August 9, 2012 at 4:31 pm

      Spoken like a true zealot from the mid west.
      Would be interested to hear your views on Mr Romney

    29. Valerie August 9, 2012 at 4:33 pm

      Mrs Mac,

      Yes, exactly.

      Mr(s) Helens Bay,

      Obama deserves to be imprisoned for his work in baby-murder.
      Those who call him out on it, deserve to be praised for their denouncement of a tyrant.

      Like Valkyrie. He stood against an evil regime, and was martyred.
      The regime called him the criminal. But he wasn’t.
      It was the regime which was wicked.
      The regime used the very language you have used, claiming that Valkyrie was a traitor to the true cause, and had slandered the Third Reich.
      But he wasn’t a traitor, nor was he a slanderer. Just a truth speaker.
      He stood for the truth, and his life was taken from him.

      Val.

    30. Helens Bay August 9, 2012 at 4:39 pm

      Bamac,
      Bishop Campbell is personally known to me and he certainly is not right wing and I applaud his statement on same sex marriage.
      But not in a million years would he issue a tirade as posted here!

    31. Valerie August 9, 2012 at 4:40 pm

      Mr(s) Helen, I don’t know anything about Romney.
      You comments gives away your position.
      You see this as a political stouch between right and left: between Obama, and Romney.
      You like Obama, and those who don’t like him, you think must like Romney.
      I don’t think Romney is much good.
      Obama is far far far worse. But Romney is not much good either.
      For me, it’s not about presidential candidates.

      I see this as a battle between little innocent babies being murdered, and the murderer who is helping women do it. It’s about the truth of that struggle.

      For me this is about the truth of the sacredness of human life, and the lies peddled by a tyrant, who wants to help women abuse their children, and throw them in the bin.

      Sure, he uses special language and subtle sophistication, so he doesn’t seem like Hitler, or Stalin.
      But he is still a tyrant who God will call to account for his actions when he dies.
      This tyrant does not wear a military uniform, nor does he don arm bands.
      But one doesn’t have to look like a tyrant to be a tyrant.
      Just visit a home where domestic violence occurs. Meet the parent who controls a home with fear.
      They often look normal, and speak well. Some have very good jobs and seem respectable.
      It’s how one acts as leader that makes one a tyrant.
      It’s about whether one protects one’s own people, or whether one helps murder them.

      Do you see the difference? Between helping people live and killing them?

      Val.

    32. Valerie August 9, 2012 at 4:44 pm

      Mrs Helen,

      But not in a million years would he issue a tirade as posted here!

      I agree. But there is no such tirade here.

      Mrs Helen,

      Do you think that the murderer who murdered the Kahui twins should be brought to justice?

      Val.

    33. Valerie August 9, 2012 at 5:04 pm

      Mrs Helen,

      Imagine this: A NZ political leader comes to the fore, and campaigns for people like the Kahuis, and says that every woman, or parent, has to right to put their children in a dryer and tumble them to death. It’s their child and their tumbler, after all. It’s about ‘parents rights’; and their psychological health, if they feel the need to do that to their child and remove them from the household.

      And this leader will help them do it through his legislation that he proposes. He’ll widen the legislation so that it’ll include tumble dryer death as part of the allowance of the law for parents.

      Then he gets elected. And does exactly that.

      Would you think he is a good guy?

      Val.

    34. bamac August 9, 2012 at 5:05 pm

      Helens Bay,

      I can see no point in answering anymore of your name calling contributions when you wont answer either of the questions I asked you ( the wording that you found repugnant or slanderous) but then, judging from your responses ,I understand that you are unable to give any definite answer except some sweeping statements, so I am out but God Bless you anyway.

      Thank you Val,

      Shalom

    35. Helens Bay August 9, 2012 at 6:51 pm

      Val
      You need to be very careful as your allegations against the Kahui family could be slanderous.
      As far as I am aware the Kahui father was found not guilty in a court of law?
      Oh and by the way I am no supporter of Obama,my distaste is at the uncharitable, non Catholic expressions in the posting.
      To try and put total blame on Obama is ludicrous as he is only one vote in a democratically elected Government.By the way if you read up on Romney you will find his policies are even worse.
      Bamac
      Unfortunately you appear blinkered and no explanation from me is going to convince you otherwise.
      Today I showed the post to a retired Parish Priest who found it abhorrent in its content and language.
      I prefer to be guided by a venerable and learned Christian.
      Did you show the posting to your PP ,I bet not

    36. Marty Rethul August 9, 2012 at 7:43 pm

      Helens Bay,

      You have accused me of slander. Could you point me to those slanderous comments which have given you most pause for thought? I’d appreciate it.

      You have accused me of uncharitable and non-Catholic expressions. Could you point me to those phrases which have given you cause for distaste, and explain why? I’d be grateful.

      There is one thing, at least, to which I will respond now.

      You state that popes have not spoken in this way. You also say:

      I invite you to ask your local Bishop or PP if they would [use?] these words in their Sunday homily.

      A post on a blog is a far cry from a homily or a papal pronouncement (of whatever kind). There are distinctions to be drawn in both medium and form.

      It is clear that you feel very strongly about the tone of my post, so I look forward to you expanding on your objections. I am sure that, given how strongly you feel, you will be willing to take the time.

    37. Marty Rethul August 9, 2012 at 7:47 pm

      Helens Bay,

      One more thing. In post #32 you say:

      Bishop Campbell is personally known to me … and I applaud his statement on same sex marriage.

      I am interested to hear you expand upon this statement, if you would.

    38. Teresina August 9, 2012 at 9:40 pm

      Excellent responses to Helens Bay, Valerie. Of course, in using words such as “hate” and “slander” Helens Bay is trying to silence legitimate discussion and debate, a method used by the PC brigade because they cannot argue on facts and logic. Reading HB’s posts it is obvious that his/her political beliefs and support for Obama far outweigh any duty she/he has as a Catholic to oppose the murder of innocent babies in the womb.

      The retired priest you mention, Helens Bay, would be doing his job if he pointed out to you the meaning of sinful indifference, which George Bernard Shaw put simply as: “Indifference is the essence of inhumanity.”

      There is a good post over at Life site news: Obamacare Allows Abortion Funding: http://www.lifenews.com/2012/08/07/obamacare-allows-abortion-funding-doesnt-cover-pregnancies-to-26

    39. Teresina August 9, 2012 at 9:50 pm

      And by the way Helens Bay Valerie never mentioned the Kahui father – you did – you say, “As far as I am aware the Kahui father was found not guilty in a court of law?” Just to get you up-to-date the Coroner has found as reported: http://www.stuff.co.nz/timaru-herald/news/7342821/Coroner-Kahui-lied-to-save-himself

      “The coroner’s finding states: ‘The court is satisfied . . . to the required standard of proof, that the traumatic brain injuries suffered by Chris and Cru Kahui were incurred by them during the afternoon/early evening of 12 June 2006, whilst they were in the sole custody, care and control of their father at 22 Courtenay Crescent, Mangere, Auckland.’”

    40. Helens Bay August 9, 2012 at 9:51 pm

      Marty
      Your statements in regard to the President of the USA in America would be slanderous -fact.
      If what you say is 100% correct then every priest,Bishop,Cardinal,and the Pope should be screaming it out from the rooftops!_Silence.
      If you believe your tirade is normal then I feel so sorry for your family.
      The statement made by Bishop Campbell appeared here on BF and on reflection it may have been in regard to Abortion in Invercagill Hospital and it was reasoned and charitable,unlike your rantings.

    41. bamac August 9, 2012 at 10:24 pm

      Marty,

      Thank you for your researched post and for handling all the slack you have been given on this thread. I am sure that your family are as proud of you as every one else on this thread apart from Chris and HB … Chris has not given the slack , he just disagreed.

      By the way HB ,you didn’t show it to your PP either but to a retired Priest….. … you are in my prayers anyway …God Bless,

      Shalom

    42. bamac August 10, 2012 at 10:23 am

      OOPS!

      That should read Flack not slack.

    43. Valerie August 10, 2012 at 10:29 am

      Mrs Helen,

      1. I didn’t put the blame on the Kahui dad. I said “the murderer” who did it. Somebody did it. They didn’t climb into the dryer by themselves. Somebody is responsible, and the justice system tried hard to find out who, but couldn’t prove it beyond reasonable doubt. Just as we all can see that it is right to find the murderer, and punish him/her, so should we punish other murderers. Even the most ardent libertarians can see that such crimes require some sort of reparation, and removal of freedoms and civil rights.

      2. That does not mean that we should convict every woman who has had an abortion.

      3. It means that we should seek to stop the structures which cause this horrible sin to be so widespread. Some people seek to spread the structures and promote them through increased funding, and support etc, like Obama. Therefore he becomes a formal participant in intrinsic corporate, structural, and personal evil.

      4. It means that we shouldn’t vote in politicians who will increase it, and sell it overseas as a “health service”; and who think it is a solution to problems for women, when it is completely evil.

      5. It means that if a leader comes to power, and seeks to increase abortion, make it cheaper for the poor, more easily accessed, and more widespread, then he is responsible for the deaths that occur under his rule, in those areas where he has increased it, and promoted it. He has increased an evil directly by his own work. He is then responsible for that part of the evil that he propagates by his own hand.

      6. Obama didn’t start abortion being legal in the USA.

      7. Obama has continued it and promoted it, willfully, and deliberately, and campaigned on those very grounds, telling people that he would increase it for all. He was then voted in. Those who voted him in share in the responsibility of his evil work.

      8. Obama is not some innocent little back-bencher politician who had no say in the policies of his party.

      9. Obama is the leader who has set the policies and campaigned on them in order to be elected. He has then implemented the policies and forced them through, with the help of his other abortion supporters: Hilary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi, etc

      10. Obama is therefore directly responsible for the abortions that he has managed to have increased under his rule, and he is directly responsible for the abortions that he could have prevented whilst being president (he should have worked to reduce abortion). He will also be responsible for the all other abortions which continue after he has gone because of his abortion and contraception expansion programs. They will further expand after he has gone, due to his work. He will be responsible for those too.

      11. It doesn’t matter if he sincerely believes that he is doing right. That doesn’t get him off the hook. Hitler and Stalin sincerely believed in their causes. Thinking that one is following one’s conscience does not amount to immunity or impunity. God knows where a person has turned away from the truth and ignored it, when they began down the path that leads to the dark side. If following one’s conscience is all that matters, then Hitler and Stalin should be let into Heaven based on their subjective conviction that what they were doing was right. Conscience is about practical decisions at the end of prudential deliberation. Before conscience, is the information of conscience. We can be guilty for failing to inform our conscience in the truth before we come to a decision. If we have doubts about the truth, then we shouldn’t act in serious matters against human life. We should wait. If we ignore the promptings of our intelligence and heart, and ignore God’s grace trying to convert us, then we will be held accountable, even if we follow our erroneously formed conscience faithfully. We will be held accountable for failings to seek for the truth authentically.

      12. Obama is therefore a murderer by rule. He has directly helped others murder innocents, just like those in the German high command. Obama has intentionally promoted it, and made it more acceptable. Those in the German high command were convicted after the war, for their part in the atrocities. They participated in the evil, and human courts bought them to justice. Obama has lead the way, like Hitler, but he has also been a pawn in what is already there. He is both tyrant and cooperator.

      13. Obama should be held accountable, as should other leaders who promote and increase abortion. If he is isn’t held accountable in this life (most likely he won’t be), it will happen in the next. Same for Clinton, and others who promoted it. God is not fooled, nor mocked, by sophistry and by human false reasoning. God will ask him about his murdering policies. Obama will see it straight away when God’s Light pours into him after death. If he doesn’t repent and accept his sins, and ask for forgiveness for what he has done before death, … well, let us pray for him that he does repent and recognize the errors of his ways, and recognize how he has helped others murder their children, before he dies. Let us pray that he begs for mercy. It will require a lot of penance and purgatory time if he does repent. If he doesn’t … well… Let us pray that he does.

      14. We can all see how certain tyrants from other lands should be brought to justice. Just look at those from the Balkans recently put on trial in international court.

      15. Obama was elected in, but that doesn’t change the gravity of what he is doing. It just makes him a bit different from other leaders who abuse their people.

      16. It’s the same for abortionists. I don’t judge any particular person, especially not the women who end up having abortions, but those who deliberately help fragile others to do it, will be held accountable. That is clear.

      Val.

    44. banter August 10, 2012 at 7:25 pm

      If You believe your tirade is normal then I feel so sorry for your family.

      Helens Bay,
      Are you trying to be deliberately and gleefully inflammatory? Perhaps you have hate in your heart towards our dear contributor Marty? And as you said #12 ‘to have hate in your heart is evil’. Surely you wouldn’t want that.
      I happen to personally know Marty’s family and I can assure you they are very proud of him – FACT. He argues and proposes his points with vigor and clarity and is brilliantly informed by the church’s teachings. It’s wonderful. He stimulates fantastic debate on BF blog. It’s such a pity that all you can do Helen’s Bay is throw some unsubstantiated and actually rather nasty comments around. Because let’s face it you failed to provide answers to a number of the questions other posters have asked. Why is that? Can you not see those questions being asked of you? Please refer to above posts #19, 29, 36, 38 and 39.

      Having now watched this debate proceed over the last few days I now have to agree with Teresina in post #40: ‘Of course, in using such words as “hate” and “slander” Helens Bay is trying to silence legitimate discussion and debate, …because they cannot argue on facts and logic’.
      I’m unimpressed Helens Bay.

    45. Valerie August 11, 2012 at 10:13 am

      Good post Mr Banter. Yes, Mrs Bay should make an apology.

      Obama lauds HHS mandate, says religious liberty concerns have been addressed

      Should the New York Archdiocese invite Pres. Obama to a special gala dinner?
      Here is journalist Phil Lawler’s take on it.

      The Al Smith dinner: the cardinal and the tax collector

      Jesus ate with tax collectors. And Cardinal Dolan plans to eat with President Obama—who, Chief Justice Roberts tells us, has imposed a “tax” on employers who refuse to subsidize contraception. But there’s a difference.

      When Jesus sat with tax collectors, the dinners were private. They were not “photo ops” for political candidates. The Lord could speak directly to the hearts of his dining companions, and convert them. Remember, St. Matthew left the tax-collecting business to follow Christ. Does anyone believe that after the Al Smith dinner, Obama will decide to rescind the contraceptive mandate?

      The annual fundraiser for Catholic Charities in New York is a non-partisan event, the organizers assure us; politics will play no part in the night’s events. Non-partisan it may be, but not apolitical. There are no apolitical public events on the schedule of a presidential candidate during the last few weeks of a campaign. Both Mitt Romney and Barack Obama will attend because they expect to gain some political advantage. They know exactly what they’re doing. Can the same be said for the host, Cardinal Dolan?

      During the dinner, the Cardinal and Obama and Romney will laugh and joke together. (The cardinal will be the star of the show, because unlike the other two men, he has a detectible sense of humor.) All good fun. But is it really harmless?

      On the morning after the dinner, millions of Americans will see, prominently displayed on the front pages of their hometown newspapers, pictures of President Obama and Cardinal Dolan smiling together. What message will they receive? Can these be the same men who are fighting a bitter political battle on a matter of conscience? The same two men who are the principal forces behind opposite sides of a landmark lawsuit? If they’re laughing and back-slapping together, the disagreement can’t be all that serious, can it? So maybe that “matter of conscience” isn’t so important after all? Apparently it wasn’t important enough to interfere with a night of fun.

      In attendance at the dinner, appropriately clad in white ties, will be corporate executives who have donated large sums to the Obama campaign. The Catholic bishops of the US — Cardinal Dolan prominently among them — have repeatedly told the faithful that it is gravely wrong to support political candidates who promote unrestricted legal abortion, euthanasia, and same-sex marriage. Yet Catholics continue to support Obama, disregarding the bishops’ warnings. When they see Cardinal Dolan arm-in-arm with a President whose administration has done so much to advance the culture of death, will they be more or less likely to take the bishops seriously?

      Cardinal Dolan may be the most gregarious man I have ever met. He seems quite genuinely to take delight in the presence of everyone he meets. That’s a quality that I admire: an enormous strength of his character. However, a man who habitually thinks the best of everyone can fail to pick up on the telltale signs of enmity. Cardinal Dolan seemed genuinely surprised that after promising to accommodate the consciences of Catholics regarding the HHS mandate, Obama did nothing of the sort. Call me a cynic if you want, but I wasn’t surprised.

      During the past several months Cardinal Dolan has proven remarkably tough in his statements regarding the mandate and feisty in his willingness to do political battle with the White House. Yet now, in the thick of that battle—and, not coincidentally, of the presidential campaign—he has offered a temporary truce. Is he making a calculated gesture, as part of some Machiavellian plan? I’d like to think so. But the cynic in me fears that the cardinal has slipped back into the naïve belief that political disagreements can be put aside for an evening of joking and backslapping without any adverse consequences. And on political affairs, sad to say, the cynic in me is almost always right.

      Mr Voris, continues to point out how it is so wrong to invite President Obama to the Al Smith dinner in New York. Worth watching.

    46. Helens Bay August 11, 2012 at 11:45 am

      Valerie,
      In #45 you state that Obama is a murderer and anyone who voted for him an accomplice.
      If I follow your logic correctly that would also make John Key and his Government murderers as well as here in NZ they condoned 15,863 abortions last year.
      The same must apply to Mr Cameron in the UK as they were complicit in the murders of 189,000 in 2011.
      In fact the majority of Western Democracies must be part of this Conspiracy.
      I have copied yours and Marty`s statements and forwarded them to the Papal Nuncio as I am sure the Vatican is unaware of your allegations as the silence from Rome is deafening.
      Just a word of warning,your posts have probably made it to the USA and the CIA and FBI may still be in NZ and you know what happened to MR Dotcom.
      I would hate some big FBI agent stood on your typing hand

    47. bamac August 11, 2012 at 12:15 pm

      Helens Bay ,

      the church is not silent re President Obama’s push

      http://www.theblaze.com/stories/we-will-not-comply-catholic-leaders-distribute-letter-slamming-obama-admin-contraceptive-mandate/

      and another

      http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/pope-us-faces-threats-to-religious-freedom-of-unprecedented-gravity/

      I very much doubt that either Marty or Val will be shaking in their shoes right now … as for your other joke about the response of either the C I A or F B I …. you forgot the smilie … here he is :biggrin_wp:

      shalom

    48. Helens Bay August 11, 2012 at 12:18 pm

      Bamac
      Hope you weren`t a Smiling John supporter

    49. banter August 11, 2012 at 12:35 pm

      Hope you weren’t a smiling John supporter

      What does that mean?

    50. banter August 11, 2012 at 12:40 pm

      You know what happened to MR Dotcom

      No I don’t know what happened to him. Has he also spoken out about abortion and president Obama? I thought he has been arrested for copyright infringement or something like that…

    51. Helens Bay August 11, 2012 at 12:56 pm

      Banter
      One of Val`s murderers John Key

    52. banter August 11, 2012 at 1:20 pm

      HB
      Ref. #53
      Oh I see. Thank you that one had completely escaped my understanding.

    53. Valerie August 11, 2012 at 1:43 pm

      Mrs Bay,

      In #45 you state that Obama is a murderer and anyone who voted for him an accomplice.

      No, I didn’t say that.

      I said and meant that if somebody votes for him (directly supporting his abortion policies, or “health care” as he puts it, meaning: abortion, contraception, sterilization etc), then they participate in his evil actions by their support (they have given him the mandate, just like supporting Hitler gave him the mandate, opportunity, and power to go ahead with his policies), which come from him being put into Office, which includes supporting the murdering of babies in the womb, or partly out of the womb (partial birth abortion), and therefore they will be partly responsible. Those who, because of his anti-life policies, voted for him, are co-responsible for the evil, and are co-participants. Maybe not to the same degree, but they have helped put him into Office, and are therefore, also part of it.

      So, your conclusion doesn’t not follow from what I said.

      John Key didn’t campaign on increasing abortion and everything else which comes along with it. And if he does nothing to help the unborn then he too will be held accountable also. Public office has become a joke. People think of it as just doing the whim of the people, or the whim of the party. Politicians are just puppets who follow the polls. Useless. I have no respect for many of them.

      But if somebody did vote specifically for a politicians, no matter who (possibly John Key), because of their pro-abortion, pro-death, pro-euthanasia, pro-murder policies, then they also will be a co-participant (to some degree) of the evil which is enacted under that government, if they do what they promised.

      You have to accept that people are responsible for their actions Mrs Bay, when they specifically vote in that direction because of those policies. They become a supporter of evil by their voting.

      E.g., If you were a German in 1936, and supported Hitler directly because of his anti-Jewish policies, and intentions to murder them, then you would be partly responsible also. It’s called “co-operation in evil”, in the Catechism.

      Val.

    54. Helens Bay August 11, 2012 at 1:53 pm

      Val
      So in your opinion John Key is also a murderer in that he didn`t lift a hand to save 15,863 babies last year?

    55. Valerie August 11, 2012 at 2:03 pm

      Mrs Bay,

      It was evident before the last Presidential Election what Obama was going to do.
      It was also evident what McCain was going to do.

      McCain said that “life begins at conception”, and directly said he was going to try and overturn Roe vs. Wade.

      Obama, said that deciding whether a fetus was human life was “above my pay-grade” and was going to increase abortion, contraception, sterilization (all intrinsic evils).

      Watch Obama and McCain here (video) in different debates.

      Further, under Obama’s government, he has set up “kill lists” to take out “terrorists” overseas, by assassinating them without any reference to any kind of just process. They just fire missiles from drones into houses Yemen, Iraq, Pakistan, and Afghanistan, and take out whole families, including children. It’s just a bunch of pencil-pushers in the White-House who decide who will live and who live die. Obama has been worse then Bush in the terrorist fight.

      US Bishops: Catholics Morally Obliged to Oppose Roe vs Wade

      Those Catholics who saw that pro-life stance from McCain and the pro-death stuff from Obama, and still voted for Obama, seriously fell down in their responsibilities as good citizens.

      Val.

    56. Valerie August 11, 2012 at 2:17 pm

      So in your opinion John Key is also a murderer in that he didn`t lift a hand to save 15,863 babies last year?

      We don’t know. He may be, by what is in his heart. If he was given the opportunity to help, and refused (for whatever reason) and didn’t do anything, then he could be a co-participant in protecting institutional “legalized” murder (abortion), a co-participant in a structural evil which is already there. So, he may be. Not sure. If he does nothing to help them, then it raises big questions as to what type of leader he is.

      Obama is different. He has deliberately increased it, and protected it. He is certainly responsible for helping others murder their children. We don’t judge him as to how guilty he is. I and we can’t know that. We just affirm that he has helped others in murdering. Murder is the deliberate taking of innocent life. All aborted babies are innocent. If Obama helps others do that directly, like he has done, then he is helping in murder – the direct and deliberate taking of innocent life, which is, by definition, unjust, and cries out to Heaven for vengeance.

      Your problem I think Mrs Helen, is that you think that by saying “murder”, we are making a direct judgment about somebody’s guilt. Murder is a word which has a particular meaning in English apart from assigning subjective guilt. Murder is the deliberate taking of innocent life. Obama is deliberately taking innocent life, even though he doesn’t recognize that life as “human life with rights”. But he can’t just make that his justification. If he doesn’t have the qualifications to make that call, and thinks that it is above his pay-grade, then he should be putting the brakes on the whole thing; not funding, and promoting it, and pushing it overseas.

      It’s like the Nazis who didn’t recognize the Jews as being human, and thinking that they were not allowed to live (no rights). That “non-recognition of the Jew’s right to life”, doesn’t get the Nazis off the hook.

      They were rightly prosecuted after the war, and found guilty of murder, even though they had allowed themselves to think that the Jews didn’t have any right to live. They were horrible murdering Nazis. Just like Obama is convincing himself that unborn babies don’t have any “rights,” does not mean that he is going to get away with all this murder that he is helping in.

      That type of sophistry and lying to oneself won’t cut it with God, and does not make his co-participation in murder any less. For such a man as Obama, in the position that he is, with all the information that he has access to, “ignorance of the natural law”, probably won’t be a defense, just like it wasn’t for Hitler, or other Nazis.

      Val.

    57. Helens Bay August 11, 2012 at 3:02 pm

      Val,
      I believe you are being very selective,John Keys position according to your criteria is no different from Obama`s, why he even has a God fearing Catholic as his deputy and you would surely believe he would have made him aware of the evil of abortion and if he didn`t he must be in the same boat.
      Surely we in NZ should be concentrating our efforts primarily against the John Key Pro Abortion Govt rather than in a Govt where we have no influence

    58. Chris Sullivan August 11, 2012 at 3:08 pm

      This is well worth reading for a better perspective on some of the points raised on this thread:

      http://ncronline.org/news/politics/which-presidential-candidate-truly-pro-life

      God Bless

    59. Helens Bay August 11, 2012 at 3:36 pm

      Excellent article Chris,without the extreme rhetoric we have been subjected to here.
      Great to read the brilliant response from the good Sisters of L.W>C.R

    60. Helens Bay August 11, 2012 at 3:43 pm

      Sorry the above should read L.C.W.R

    61. Zitalin August 11, 2012 at 4:01 pm

      Hi Helens Bay

      “I showed the post to a retired Parish Priest who found it abhorrent in its content and language” #37

      “I have copied yours and Marty`s statements and forwarded them to the Papal Nuncio as I am sure the Vatican is unaware of your allegations as the silence from Rome is deafening.” # 48

      Why are you showing other people’s comments to a priest and the Apostolic Nuncio? The Nuncio is very definitely part of what you regard as the “old boys club” in Rome who “are living in the past” etc.

      Do you think a collection of your own comments from BF should be sent to the Nuncio in their unchanged form just so he can have a better feel for your way of thinking? Shown to the retired Parish Priest? Or would you feel that would be an attempt to blackmail and intimidate you, a kind of tit for tat tactic and a denial of your right to present your thoughts to these people in a format and style you think most appropriate?

      Why are you using Church authority that you don’t support against those who are trying to defend her teaching?

      The ends don’t justify the means you know. I think there is an inconsistency in your thinking and in your behaviour. I have seen this in other feminists as well and I think it does actual harm to the cause of women.

      At least you enliven the debate, much like an agent provocateur. A bit more reasoned approach wouldn’t go amiss though. A word of advice – count to ten before you next write the word “slander”.

      Have a great weekend.

    62. Valerie August 11, 2012 at 4:41 pm

      I have had enough of this.

      Bottom Line:
      Nobody knows Obama’s personal guilt.
      We can all, however, judge his external actions and policies around life, and what they lead to.
      Increased multiple killing of the innocent.

      Nobody really knows Hitler’s personal guilt.
      We can all, however, judge his external actions and policies, and what they led to.
      WWII and millions dead.

      Obama is no friend of the Catholic Church.
      Obama is no friend to pregnant women in difficulty.
      Obama is no friend to unborn babies.
      Obama is a massive supporter of abortion.
      Obama is a massive supporter of planned parenthood.

      Make up your own mind. It’s obvious.

      Mr Rethul’s analogy to Nazi Germany is strong, but I think that after all the posts explaining things, everybody can see where the similarities lie, and where the differences lie.

      Let us pray for Obama and his conversion.

      I’m out.

      God Bless you Mrs Bay.
      I would like to endorse Zitalin’s comment about a bit more reason in your posts.
      You would make more friends here if you participated with more integrity.

      Deacon Sullivan, you should stop reading NCR. It’s poisoning your mind.

      Val.

    63. Teresina August 11, 2012 at 7:26 pm

      Helens Bay, I’m sure that everyone posting here realises it is a waste of time engaging with you. From what I have read of your posts you are filled with hate against those opposing abortion on this blog, chiefly Marty and Valerie. If you were anti-abortion (as you claim) you would congratulate them for mounting such a staunch well-argued defence of the right to life of unborn babies as Marty and Valerie have done here. In fact, I go so far as to say I find it incredible that any pro-life person would come out against what they have posted here as you have done, and in such a nasty manner as you have done.

      I find usually the most vitriol against pro-life Catholics opposing abortion comes from those who have either had an abortion themselves or who have helped and encouraged others to snuff out the life of innocent unborn babies. To me you fall into that category. Maybe you are overcome with guilt and need counselling of some sort. Maybe the retired priest could help you.

      Certainly, if you have sent Marty and Valerie’s post to the Apostolic Nuncio it will give him a lot of heart to know that there are still a few Catholics left in this country who are prepared to stand up for the right to life of the most defenceless in our society, and in doing so they stand up for what the Church teaches. I have to say it has given me a lot of heart to know there are still a few Catholics like Marty and Valerie, rather than “Catholics” so-called like yourself who, I am sure, would be far happier (and among friends) posting on the National Catholic Register blog (the fishwrap as Fr Z calls it – although having read some of the posts there I think he is being far too charitable to them. I wouldn’t want to see my fish and chips wrapped in that paper!).

      So, thanks, Marty and Valerie, Catholics greatly value your input, much as Helens Bay has tried to stifle it.

    64. Teresina August 11, 2012 at 7:39 pm

      Apologies to the National Catholic Register, a Catholic paper. It is the non-Catholic National Catholic Reporter that Fr Z charitably refers to as “fishwrap”, where I feel sure that she (Helens Bay) would feel far more at home among those non-Catholics who support abortion, contraception and homosexuality, and anything else that is opposed to the moral teaching of the Catholic Church.

    65. Helens Bay August 11, 2012 at 9:21 pm

      teresina,
      As a mother,grandmother and great grand mother and also the eldest of 8 children I take great offence at your inference that I have been involved in any way with the evil of abortion.
      I don`t know your age but I can guarantee you don`t have the backbone to tell me where you live as I would be on your doorstep in a flash and tell you of my life with children.
      But probably like all cowards you will slink away.

    66. banter August 11, 2012 at 9:41 pm

      Val,

      I’m sorry you have had enough and you’re out. I have certainly enjoyed reading your posts for their intelligence. If I could write half as well I might be able to join you more commenting on BF.

      But I don’t blame you really. I agree with Teresina that it seems to be a waste of time replying to Helens Bay. I don’t think she’s interested in learning something new. And I think I have come to the conclusion that HB is just trying to rattle. As Zitilan said an ‘agent provocateur’. I think that must be the main objective because there is certainly no rigor to her arguments. I will say it again that HB is yet to respond to a number of the questions previously posted.

      So Helens Bay yes you do enliven the debate by taking an alternate stance. But could you formulate a more reasoned approach because I think we’re all just beginning to think you’re taking the mick and deliberately winding us up. You’ll find we stop responding to you at all after a while if you continue in this manner.

    67. Zitalin August 12, 2012 at 3:17 am

      Hi Helens Bay

      Perhaps you could consult one of those online etiquette thingies because to my mind some of your behaviour is quite worrying.

      Hello Teresina

      I hope you won’t publish your real name and address in response to Helens Bay’s latest and somewhat threatening comment. I certainly wouldn’t – the thought of Helens Bay turning up on my doorstep does not fill me with anticipation.

      Val and all other real contributors to this topic – thank you.

    68. Marty Rethul August 12, 2012 at 8:02 pm

      Thanks to banter, Zitalin, Teresina and especially Valerie for your input.

      Helen’s Bay I’m astonished at you. So much of your time on this blog has been spent complaining about the ‘big boys/boys club’ up in Rome, yet here you are sending posts to one of them.

      He may not be in Rome, but as Papal Nuncio he is still one of the big boys, or in this boys club.

    69. Teresina August 12, 2012 at 8:12 pm

      Thanks Zitalin, fully endorse what you say!

    70. bamac August 12, 2012 at 9:27 pm

      Marty,

      Thank you again for this good post … 71 comments! Thank you too to many who made so many worthwhile contributions.

      Helens Bay,

      I hope you have a lot of loving interaction with your large family.

      Shalom

    71. Abenader August 13, 2012 at 11:14 am

      Helens Bay
      Nana (I hope you don’t mind), we are all going to die one day. We are all going to be judged one day. Thereafter, for eternity, we will ‘end up’ in one place (over another). It is our choice totally where we headed.
      I noticed that your comments reveal that you have a great admiration for the L.C.W.R. which would suggest that you agree with many, many positions that they adopt (in opposition to The Church and most certainly in opposition to Our Holy Father).
      Nana HB, these positions are deadly!!I hope and pray that you will find it in your heart to see the truth. God’s truth and God’s authority invested in Peter.
      I came across this blog post (which maybe you have read) which to me anyhow, asks ONE fundamental question. Apologies if you have read it already. I hope that you will take the time out to have a peek at it.

      God Bless

    72. bamac August 13, 2012 at 12:42 pm

      Abenader,

      Thank you for both your comments and for the link which is a worthwhile one …. I went on onto links he gave …also good , so thank you again.

      Shalom

    73. Teresina August 13, 2012 at 11:48 pm

      Yes, thank you for the link, Abenader. I don’t know if you read some of the comments to the blog, but the first one is from one of the sisters and it is a poignant reminder of the suffering that these faithful nuns (and faithful priests too) have endured during this period of rampant, wilful disobedience to the Magisterium and to the teachings of the Church. She asks that we pray for the nuns as many are enduring a “silent martyrdom”. This is what Sister said of the LCWR:

      “This is an accurate and honest summary of the situation involving LCWR. What I am hoping for is what the Vatican hopes for: A death-bed conversion on the part of LCWR.
      I am a voice in the minority of an apostolic congregation of women religious. LCWR reigns supreme in the hallowed corridors of our foundress and some sisters are living a silent martyrdom as nuns in radically feminist orders. Please pray for us, too, not JUST for LCWR. Thank you. I love Holy Mother Church as much as you do. Thank you for writing this excellent article.”

      So that is a timely reminder that we must pray very much for all faithful priests and religious who are preserving the Faith through their “silent martyrdom”.