The Sunday Scrum

Today is the feast day of St Edgar the Peaceful (love the name!)

 

"English king and patron of St. Dunstan, who served as his counselor. England underwent a religious revival in his reign, and he is venerated at Glastonbury. "

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    Comments: 46

    1. MrTipsNZ June 8, 2014 at 10:07 am

      Um, its also Pentecost. Slightly more impt don't you think?

    2. Werahiko June 8, 2014 at 12:48 pm

      Edgar was less than 5ft tall, so must have been pretty peaceful to avoid the apellation "the short". Maybe he was the origin of the idea of Hobbits. Tolkien was an expert in the literature of Edgar's age. Appreciate the point about Pentecost, but there is nothing in Church teaching about thinking of other things on great feasts. 

    3. Boanerges June 8, 2014 at 8:15 pm

      Tips 

      the text in the Sunday scrum is a placeholder so that people can comment "off topic" in the comments without getting their collars felt for straying. 

      No intention to draw attention away from Pentecost by putting in a brief two liner on an obscure English Saint. Im surprised it has been interpreted as such? 

    4. Benedicta June 8, 2014 at 10:21 pm

      Werahiko

      You made me smile! I enjoyed your comment.

      Boanerges

      Also raised a smile 'without getting their collars felt for straying'….like that!

    5. Teresina June 9, 2014 at 9:56 am

      Although Bishop Browne is forging on with his plans to amalgamate parishes in Hamilton Diocese, it seems that Bishop Dunne and Bishop Drennan are quite happy to have foreign priests in their dioceses as the report from NZ Catholic says:

      Friday Jun, 2014 12:00 PM | by editor  

      AUCKLAND — As the Catholic Church in New Zealand becomes more diverse, priests from overseas have helped ease the shortage of clergy in various dioceses.
      Auckland Bishop Patrick Dunn said priests from overseas have been a great blessing in general, and most of the other dioceses have welcomed foreign seminarians as well.

      Priests from overseas have been a blessing.

      “I have felt comfortable having immigrant priests, as long as the ethnic mix of the priests reflects the ethnic mix of the parishioners so that the priests will generally have some parishioners from their own homeland,” he said. “Culture
      is very real and very strong. You can’t deny it.”
      New Zealand Statistics Department figures show one in eight Catholics identify with at least one Asian ethnic group. One in 10 belong to at least one Pacific people’s ethnic group.
      Bishop Dunn said he didn’t start out actively inviting priests from overseas to come here. “They had asked to come here usually because they have relations who have invited them to come. That’s exactly what happened,” he recalled with a smile.
      Immigrants, he said, who learned of the shortage of priests in Auckland would volunteer their cousin who is a priest and invite them over.
      Bishop Dunn said a number of priests from overseas have come to
      work for three to five years to gain overseas experience in New Zealand, with permission from their bishops or superiors.
      He noted there are a number of cultural differences that they have learned.
      For example, he said, priests who come from very, very large parishes in their countries are not used to visiting parishioners
      in their homes. “Whereas here in New Zealand, we encourage the
      priests to go out, rather than just wait for the parishioners to come and see them,” he said.
      Other priests do not know how to drive a car. “They either have a driver or use public transport,” said Bishop Dunn. Sometimes, he said, this could present a problem, especially in Auckland.
      But, in general, he said the whole situation has worked out very well.
      Although Hamilton diocese decided not to invite seminarians from other countries to train here, Palmerston North is fundraising for its seminarians, some of whom are from Vietnam. “They are a great blessing to us,” said Palmerston North Bishop Charles Drennan.
      Bishop Dunn said Auckland’s seminarians are a diverse ethnic mix of
      Kiwis. “They grew up here or they’ve lived here for some years. They were not necessarily born here, but they lived in Auckland for some years before they joined the seminary,” he said.

    6. Teresina June 9, 2014 at 10:10 am

      It appears we truly have our own Church in New Zealand or at least in Hamilton Diocese where they can make such comments as the following:

       

      "

      The current approach has taken into account this previous work but has also taken as its inspiration the teaching and emphasis of Pope Francis, with his emphasis since his election on the need to return to the work and spirit of Vatican II.

      “Francis has focused on collegiality, with a desire to collaborate honestly and transparently with the worldwide Conferences of Bishops,” say Msgr Murray and Fr Darren.  They also note this does not preclude the Pope’s right to act alone.

      “We believe this focus on collegiality can re-energise the diocese, especially the priests, as it looks to planning not only for the future but also, more pressingly, for today.”

      As a result, the plan is based on the need to work collegially in the diocese – bishop with priests; priests with priests; and priests with parishioners.

      Note in this context, “collegiality” has come from the Vatican II reference to “college” in terms of the relationship between pope and bishops.  Today, this term refers to the shared responsibility for the whole Church by the whole people of God."

      I would like to ask: since when and says who?  Mons Trevor Murray?  If so, on what authority?

    7. Teresina June 9, 2014 at 10:18 am

      At least in making the statement "Today, this term [collegiality] refers to the shared responsibility for the whole Church by the whole people of God" the true intention behind the new Hamilton diocesan plan is revealed – to take responsibility from the parish priest and hand it over to lay people and PAY THEM TO RUN THE PARISH - nothing like what Vatican II intended at all.

      This is a complete misrepresentation of what Pope Francis has said and what Vatican II says and it is totally dishonest of Mons Trevor Murray to make such statements.

       

    8. Teresina June 9, 2014 at 10:33 am

      One only has to look at the newsletter of Waihi Parish of which Mons Trevor Murray is parish priest to see what is being fostered there:

      http://waihicatholic.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Newsletter-2014.06.08-Pentecost-Sunday.pdf

      Details of a purported letter to Pope Francis from an Anna Holmes of Dunedin Diocese (not Hamilton Diocese) who says among other things:

      “Travelling around NZ at the end of last year I heard stories of clericalism everywhere.  Priests who refused to acknowledge or affirm the ministries of the people; priests imported from other cultures who issued orders and expected to have their hands kissed by grateful parishioners.”

      This perhaps is what Mons Trevor Murray is basing the Hamilton Strategic plan on because certainly the Hamilton Diocese (contrary to other dioceses in New Zealand) is not inviting foreign priests into the diocese and has sent some back to their home countries.  This women is obviously Zenophoic as is the Hamilton Diocese in now deciding not to train seminarians from overseas – preferring instead TO PAY LAY PEOPLE TO DO THE JOB …

       

    9. Teresina June 9, 2014 at 10:44 am

      Further enlightening articles in the Waihi Parish newsletter which goes to all four parishes:

      Irish Archbishop Open to Married Priests

      Warning of Opposition to Francis

      Review of Missal Translation Promised

      http://waihicatholic.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Newsletter-2014.06.01-Ascension-Sunday.pdf

      So this is what we're in for if this plan goes ahead.  We're not going to recognise the Catholic Church in Hamilton.

    10. Vatican2Survivor June 9, 2014 at 1:23 pm

      Teresina

      Is that Dr Anna Holmes a member of Catholic Women Knowing our Place which promotes women priests?Should Fr Trevor Murray be involved in facilitating of a pastoral plan when his parish is promoting dissidents and the plan seems generally to be against the Catholic Priesthood instituted by Christ. Are these two the same variety of goofy of the post modern ilk, who instead of seeing the destruction of cultures somehow see something else–such as calling concerntration camps gated communities for spoilt white folk, or the demolition of the Church as the finding of one's neighbour?

    11. Teresina June 9, 2014 at 2:00 pm

      Vatican 2 Survivor, from what I have read, yes, she does belong to Women Knowing our Place, which is affiliated to We are Church.  Both groups promote women priests.  With all the excellent material that is available which could go into his parish newsletter, the fact that Mons Trevor Murray prefers to promote a Catholic dissenter – such as Dr Anna Holmes - then I agree that he should not be involved in the Hamilton Diocese Strategic Plan which as you say "seems generally to be against the Catholic priesthood instituted by Christ" and according to the minutes on his own parish website there is disagreement about his parish merger already – reflecting what other Catholics in the diocese are saying.

    12. Teresina June 9, 2014 at 2:16 pm

      For your info, Vatican 2 Survivor, the Waihi parish leadership team report in the minutes that the merger committees have met twice but there is "resistance from some people to the planned merger".  Mons Trevor Murray is to arrange a meeting to try to find a way forward (no doubt that means brow  beat them into submission!)

      http://waihicatholic.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/PLT-2014.05.12-Minutes.pdf

    13. Dominican June 9, 2014 at 2:40 pm

      Not only Waihi.  From what I heard the meeting held recently at the Hamilton Cathedral was not a majority hands up for the proposal.  Held on a Wednesday early evening (that would have ensured some people were unavoidably late!)  but people did eventually speak out and when questions were asked about particular needs (that had not been addressed) they were ignored – fancy that in what should be a transparent and open debate.

    14. Teresina June 9, 2014 at 2:50 pm

      There is certainly no transparent and open debate with this plan – it is being presented as a fait accompli.  Originally the plan stated that there would be no church closures but now the plan is saying:

      "The merging of existing parishes into new parishes is seen as having the advantage of one administrative structure.  The plan stresses that no church is expected to close, unless there are mitigating circumstances."

      Certainly Masses will have to be cut under this plan and people in some areas are going to have to travel probably half an hour each way to Mass – how long is that going to last with petrol prices etc?  One parish priest in Hamilton said he doesn't want to take on extra Masses – so what does taht mean?  More burden on the other two priests or Masses cut out.

      Waihi Parish also state that there has been a poor response to the recent planned giving drive – no surprises there when the whole diocese is in a state of flux.

      Surely Rome should insist that this plan be held over for the decision of the new bishop instead of being rammed through by a semi-retired Bishop Browne?  

    15. bamac June 9, 2014 at 3:19 pm

      http://www.catholicworker.org.nz/cg/CG27-Honouring2.htm

       

      something about  Knowing our Place and Dr Anna Holmes    so much for the Catholic Worker!

      Mrs Mac

    16. Don the Kiwi June 9, 2014 at 4:22 pm

      Yes, dissent is alive and well in Christ's Church, and those who consider the priesthood a position of power – as these feministas do – instead of a ministry of service, will fade away, and the priesthood will continue to be male, In Person Christi. Women, no matter how much one wants it, cannot be the Male Bridegroom to the Female Church. All they are promoting is a Lesbian Church, which is what the homosexual agenda is in their attempt to destroy the Church.

      Just won't happen. Pray for them, and our priests, and the Church.

       

    17. Don the Kiwi June 9, 2014 at 4:23 pm

      "PersonA Christi"    :-)

    18. withhope June 9, 2014 at 4:31 pm

      In the vatican yesterday, Jorge Bergoglio committed an act of formal apostasy – it would be good if as many as are willing pray rosaries in reparation for this abomination.

      "We can in no wise approve" of Bergoglio. By the way, a formal act of Apostasy negates any claim to papal authority.

      From Pius XI

      'A similar object is aimed at by some, in those matters which concern the New Law promulgated by Christ our Lord. For since they hold it for certain that men destitute of all religious sense are very rarely to be found, they seem to have founded on that belief a hope that the nations, although they differ among themselves in certain religious matters, will without much difficulty come to agree as brethren in professing certain doctrines, which form as it were a common basis of the spiritual life. For which reason conventions, meetings and addresses are frequently arranged by these persons, at which a large number of listeners are present, and at which all without distinction are invited to join in the discussion, both infidels of every kind, and Christians, even those who have unhappily fallen away from Christ or who with obstinacy and pertinacity deny His divine nature and mission. Certainly such attempts can nowise be approved by Catholics, founded as they are on that false opinion which considers all religions to be more or less good and praiseworthy, since they all in different ways manifest and signify that sense which is inborn in us all, and by which we are led to God and to the obedient acknowledgment of His rule. Not only are those who hold this opinion in error and deceived, but also in distorting the idea of true religion they reject it, and little by little. turn aside to naturalism and atheism, as it is called; from which it clearly follows that one who supports those who hold these theories and attempt to realize them, is altogether abandoning the divinely revealed religion.'

      MORTALIUM ANIMOS
      ON RELIGIOUS UNITY ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XI JANUARY 6, 1928

      http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11MORTA.HTM

    19. withhope June 9, 2014 at 4:35 pm

      A couple more quotes from the Popes of Christmas Past:

      Pope Leo XIII: "Tear away the mask of Freemasonry and make it plain to all what it is. It aims at the utter overthrow of the whole religious order of the world which Christian teaching has produced and the substitution of a new state of things based on the principles of pure naturalism. Including almost every nation in its grasp, it unites itself with other sects of which it is the real inspiration and the hidden motive of power. It first attracts and then retains its associates by the base of worldly advantage which it secures for them. It bends governments to its will, sometimes by promises, other times by threats. It has found its way into every class of society and forms an invisible and irresponsible power. An independent government, as it were, within the body of the lawful state. It denies that our first parents sinned and consequently that man’s free will is in any way weakened or inclined to evil. We see that men are publicly tempted by many allurements of pleasure, there are journals or pamphlets without moderation or shame, stage plays are remarkably licentious. The designs of works of art are shamelessly sought in the laws of so-called realism. And all the blandishments of pleasure are diligently sought out by which virtue may be lulled to sleep. There have been in these secret societies some who are proposed artfully and of set purpose that the multitude should be satiated with boundless license of vice, as when this had been done it could come more easily under their power and authority." (Humanum Genus – Encyclical on Freemasonry)

      Pius XI: "Communism is intrinsically evil, and no one who would save Christian civilization may collaborate with it in any undertaking whatsoever. For the evil we must combat is, at its origin, primarily, an evil of the spiritual order. From this polluted source, the monstrous emanations of the Communist system flow with satanic logic."

      Pope Pius XII: "Fatima is the summation of my thinking. The time for doubting Fatima is passed. It is now time for action."

       

      It is interesting that for the freemason he worships the same god (lucifer), whether, 'in Temple, Mosque or Cathedral". Yesterday, an anti-pentecost took place in full view in the Vatican where the 'temple, the mosque, the anti-cathedral', prayed together to their god.

    20. withhope June 9, 2014 at 4:43 pm

      p.s. But happily the True Apostolic Body of the the True Church continues, and God will give us, again more True priests and bishops if would pull our heads out of the sand and pray for them rather than supporting the church that has, for the time being, eclipsed the True Church. All of these things have been prophesied in the Church for yonks.

      ‘The World in Our Time.’
      Cardinal Pie of Poitiers
      (1815 – 1880)

      “It is certain that as the world draws towards its end the wicked and the seducers will increasingly have the upper hand.

      Faith will hardly be found any longer on earth; that is to say that it will have all but completely disappeared from the institutions of the world.

      Even believers will scarcely dare to profess their beliefs publicly and collectively.

      The scission, the separation, the divorce of societies from God, which is given by St. Paul as a sign of the approaching end (“…nisi venerit discessio primum…”) will become each day more absolute.

      The Church, though of course still a visible society, will be increasingly reduced to individual and domestic proportions. She who in Her young days cried out: “the place is strait: give me room wherein to dwell,” will see every inch of Her territory under attack. Surrounded on all sides, as the other centuries have made Her great, so the last will strive to crush Her. And finally the Church on earth will undergo a true defeat: “…and it was given unto him to make war with the saints and to overcome them.” (Apocalypse 13:7) The insolence of evil will be at its peak.

      Now, in this extremity, what will be the remaining duty of all true Christians, of all men of faith and courage?

      The answer is this: spurred on to ever greater vigour by the apparent hopelessness of their predicament, they will redouble their ardour in prayer, their energy in works, and their courage in combat so that their every word and work cries out together:

      “Oh God, Our Father, who art in Heaven,
      Hallowed be Thy Name, on earth as it is in Heaven,
      Thy Kingdom come, on earth as it is in Heaven,
      Thy Will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven
      Sicut in coelo…et in terra!”

      And they shall still be murmuring these words as the earth is snatched from beneath their feet. And just as of old, after a comparable calamity, the Roman Senate and every rank of the state once went forth to greet the conquered consul Varro on his return and to honour him for not despairing of the Republic (“…quod de re publica non desperasset…”), so shall the celestial senate, all the choirs of angels and all the ranks of the Blessed come out to welcome the generous athletes who have continued the combat to the end, hoping against hope itself, “…contra spem in spem…” (Romans 4:17). Come, Lord Jesus.”

       

      Cardinal Pie could see a day when the True Church would be reduced to 'individual and domestic proportions' – what this suggests is that the church that holds the cathedrals will become false.

       

    21. withhope June 9, 2014 at 4:44 pm

      p.s. at least false for a time. If anyone has a True Catholic Sense, it is not hard to discern that the teachings and 'sacrament' of the novus ordo are not authentic Catholicism.

    22. Teresina June 9, 2014 at 4:45 pm

      Withhope, there are many things that Pope Francis has said that I don't agree with but I certainly do not consider him  praying with Jews and Moslems for peace to be an apostate act?  How can you consider a joint prayer for peace as an apostate act?

      Note that the Chief Rabbi – who was a friend of Pius XII - converted to Catholicism because of the actions of Pius XII to try to save Jews, many of whom were hidden in the Vatican and many of whom were taken in by Catholics families on the pretence they were Catholic while still maintaining their Jewish identities.  Our Lord Himself, mixed with all sorts of people.  You will never convert anyone to Catholicism if the door is firmly shut.  

    23. starchild June 9, 2014 at 4:50 pm

      Vat2S yeah I've heard there is a lot of complaints about this plan in Hamilton. Why can't they wait for a new Bishop?

    24. Teresina June 9, 2014 at 5:05 pm

      Interesting that the Hamilton Diocese Strategic Plan says:

      "Under Bishop Gaines and Bishop Browne a number of discussion papers have been prepared; proposals made; and consultation processes entered into.  However, little or nothing has changed in respect of the organisation of the parishes, and the number of Sunday Masses offered.  During the same period priests have died, retired or continued to minister past the age of 75. …

      A quick look at information about the age range of the Bishop and priests indicates a substantial weighting in the older age groups.  This point is highlighted by four of the priests being 75 years of age or older and still in active ministry.  Of these four, two are known to wish to retire immediately or by the end of 2014.  A further three priests are 70 years of age or older and still in active ministry

      “Prudent planning requires that we find out as soon as possible when these priests would like to retire,” the strategic plan says.

      The six priests in the 60-69 age range are expected to indicate sooner rather than later at what age they would prefer to retire".

      "Expected to indicate" or pressured to indicate?

      No mention of course that Bishop Browne is 77 and many of the women in the RCIA etc are over 75 and what about those in the 60 to 69 age group .  Can we expect to see all of them stepping down now???

      As the plan indicates there have been moves afoot to make changes in the diocese since Bishop Gaines was bishop – apparently these included priestless Sundays, etc.  The same bunch of people who are behind this plan have been involved in the diocese for far too long.  The Hamilton diocese has not flourished under them.  But for the immigrants that we have – who they refused to bring in priests for – we would have hardly anyone in the pews.

      We have a strong body of young priests and lay people who could, if given the chance, pull this Diocese up by its bootstraps.   It is long past the time that the Hamilton Diocese had a complete clean out with fresh blood and new ideas that will build up the diocese and the priesthood rather than destroy it and promote women running  parishes – pseudo priests – whose aims are clearly shown in Mrs Mac's link above.   That is why there has been no genuine attempt in this diocese to build up the priesthood at all.  Bishop Browne has not been a father to his priests, undermined their authority and  upheld the laity while rewarding those with the title of Monsignor (now abolished by Pope Francise to avoid careerism among priests) for those who have promoted his liberal ideas in the diocese – nothing more obvious than the ideas promoted by Mons Trevor Murray in the Waihi newsletter: maried priests, a new look at the translation of the missal and women priests in the form of the letter written by the feminist from Dunedin.

    25. withhope June 9, 2014 at 5:09 pm

      Teresina, it doesn't really matter what we would like to think; what matters is what the Church has always taught, which is what Christ teaches. Like jpii, bergoglio is a formal, public apostate – the Popes of the Church  taught and recognised these acts as such throughout the ages. Truth doesnot change:

      http://www.cfnews.org/page88/files/fd408b8279e3fa9e52aecf63d8ed310b-235.html

      The reason I post here is because I know there will be at least one person who 'has ears to here', at this time. And one person matters that much. When Catholics stop thinking in terms of quantity and start thinking about the quality of authentic faith and God given sacramental Grace, this 'eclipse of the True Church'  by an heretical freemasonic facade will end. I am not saying every priest and bishop is false, but while they support falsehood they are defacto freemasons. The Truth of what the Church teaches is available for anyone willing the 'seek, ask and knock'. We've had centuries upon centuries of Popes, Bishops, Priests, Religious and Lay teaching a Truth of Unity and One Mind – it's not hidden.

    26. Teresina June 9, 2014 at 5:30 pm

      Withope, I am sure that during Pope Pius XII's time there were Jewish prayers said in the Vatican by those who were taking sanctuary there.  Even the early Christians went to the Jewish temple to pray.  Religious indifferentism is: The term given, in general, to all those theories, which, for one reason or another, deny that it is the duty of man to worship God by believing and practicing the one true religion

      The serious things I see by Pope Francis are the promotion of collegiality and divorced people remarried without an annulment (and by that I don't mean the readily granted kind of annulments that take place in some places) receiving communion; embracing publicly a priest who promotes homosexuality and other statements that he has made that are ambiguous or plainly not Catholic Church teaching.

    27. Teresina June 9, 2014 at 5:34 pm

      Starchild, yes, I think that the Hamilton plan should be left  for the decision of the new bishop of Hamilton.  Bishop Browne should step back and retain some dignity rather than being seen as the final destroyer of the Hamilton Diocese.  Also Mons Trevor Murray and Fr Darren McFarlane are not going to be thanked for their role in this disastrous plan by the other priests nor the laity.

    28. withhope June 9, 2014 at 6:27 pm

      Teresina, the Chief Rabbi of Rome under Pius XII converted to Catholicism – no doubt in no small part responding to the authentic witness of an authentic Pope. What took place yesterday was a public church head condoning the unbelief in Our Lord Jesus Christ, who is the Only Saviour of every soul. And condoning that unbelief on a day when the Holy Ghost descended upon the Apostles and St. Peter, the First Pope, preached to Jews for their conversion – Acts 2: 14-41 – exhorting them to 'save themselves from this perverse generation [that being the jews who deny Christ]'.

       

       

    29. Teresina June 9, 2014 at 8:33 pm

      Withhope, having looked at the video of this I'm sorry but I cannot see anything wrong in this.  It took place in the Vatican Gardens, not even St Peter's, and I think it is stretching things a bit far to be saying that praying for peace can be regarded as an apostate act even if other religions were present.  I think that is absolutely twisting the Church's teaching.  Keep your powder dry until you get something really serious to be worried about, which no doubt we will in a few months' time.

      http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/israeli-palestinian-leaders-gather-with-pope-francis-for-peace-prayer/

      If you recall Benedict XVI was gifted a 200 year old olive tree from Israel and that too was planted in the Vatican Gardens.

       

    30. Teresina June 9, 2014 at 8:38 pm

      Withhope, even the SSPX joined the Pope's call for inter-religious  prayers for peace last year.  Here is what is on their website:

      "The Holy Father convokes a day of prayer and penance for peace in the Middle East.

      The call for peace is certainly a good one. One could wish that the Holy Father would make the connection between peace on earth and fidelity to the divine will and invite people to seek more directly peace from the only One who can give it: Our Lord Jesus Christ, Rex Pacificus. The distinction between legitimate and illegitimate violence is necessary, just as, the distinction between true peace and false peace.

      Nonetheless, we appreciate the invitation to pray and fast and we hope that not only Catholics but everyone may respond to the Pope's call by praying to Our Lord Jesus Christ and His Virgin Mother. Indeed it was at Fatima that she declared herself as the Queen of Peace and the one through whom God entrusted all graces.

      May the Pope make of this new escalating conflict the occasion to answer her request, giving to the whole world by the effect of Her intervention a renewed proof that the Catholic Church is the only religion to possess the power of intercession with God and the means of salvation for mankind.

      Pope Francis has launched a heartfelt appeal for peace in Syria, expressing his pain and concern regarding the conflict and asking the concerned parties and the international community to embark on the path of negotiation, setting aside partisan interests. "

    31. Teresina June 10, 2014 at 2:39 pm

      For those who may be interested:

      New website for the diocesan strategic plan will be live shortly at  http://www.whoismyneighbour.org.nz

      Details of the (demolition) plan can be found here:

      http://proudtobecatholic.org.nz/3362/who-is-my-neighbour/

    32. Ireish June 10, 2014 at 5:56 pm

      With respect to the Hamilton plan. At the meeting held at the Cathedral to promote the plan for Hamilton Central Collegial area all did not go according to the plan of the presenters. Firstly Carol Fleming gave a talk on the "Context" of ther plan, information presented for the reasons for the plan were 1. Christchurch Earthquake and 2. Wellington Diocese earthquake risk churches, both of these were the reasons why each of the respective dioceses had to re organise and consolidate their respective parishes. Both of these examples were totally out of comtext as to the reasons for supporting the proposed plan for Hamilton. Then Msgr Trevor read and gave a talk on the parable of the good samaritan as the scriptural support for the plan. Then Fr Darren took paragraphs from Pope Francis's recent "Evangelii gaudium" and used these as support for supporting the plan. My view was both of these presenters took these totally out of context. However the meeting was set down for 2 hours and the above took one and a half hours. Two groups, finance and pastoral, were then being prepared to go away and work on how they were going to implement the amalgamation. However this did not eventuate as the meeting participants demanded discussion on the plan. This was relunctantly agreed to. It became very obvious that the great majority of the participants did not agree with what was being proposed. The bishop who was in attendance stated that there might have to be some modification to the proposed amalgamation and that the timeframe of the end of 2014 might not be achievable. Interesting to note that the Hamilton reporter for NZ Catholic was at the meeting but that the latest issue reporting the plan had no mention of the meeting or its contents what so ever. All it reported was some random individuals who supported the plan. I think that it is fair to say that all attending, including the four parish priests of the affected parishes, agreed that some changes had to be made but that the plan as presented was not supported nor workable. I agree with other posts on this site that the appropriate path forward would be to put the current plan on ice until a new Bishop is appointed and then for the Diocese to work through a long term plan for the future of the diocese, and one which will be a positive path forward. One that will encourage growth and support parish life, sundat mass availability to all, and a workable workload for our priests.

      The current status quo cannot continue, neither can the current plan, the hierarchy need to act in the appointemnt of a new Bishop with urgency.

    33. Teresina June 10, 2014 at 9:26 pm

      Thanks for that info Ireish.  Was the meeting generally open to parishioners or was it only parish lay leaders?  There has been nothing for the other parish planned for Hamilton as far as I know.  I am glad to hear some good questions were asked, for which they seem to have had no answers.  As you say, no doubt that some changes need to be made but what is presented seems ill thought out – some of the linked parishes in the collegial areas being very far distant from the other.  There won't be any support for something which just seems to be a blanket plan across the whole of the diocese without any consideration given to the difference between rural areas and the cities for example, and the large population differences for one thing.  Waihi, for example, cannot equate to the pressures that the priests in Hamilton City have for example – there can't be more than a total of 5,000 in the whole of the Waihi area and yet 6 priests are expected to cope with the whole of Hamilton City.  The plan defies logic.

      The plan needs to be put on ice as you say and the new bishop and his team can address it.  Also, there seems to me to be pressure being put on priests to resign.  If they are fit and healthy why should they unless they really want to?  Older priests can be mentors for the younger priests and have a lot of experience of living a priestly vocation which is invaluable, aside from anything else.  I couldn't get over the fact that there is even talk about 60 to 69 year old priests being considered for retirement.  In the old days priests never retired.  Not that I want to put that pressure on them either if that's what they want, but none of the priests should be forced to retire unless that is what they want themselves and they shouldn't feel the pressure that this plan is putting on them.

      As you say they're quoting Pope Francis, well, Pope Francis is 85 and seems to be pretty fit and there's no talk of his retirement.  And in the business world there are examples of people working well into their seventies and loving it.  I know that the lay people appreciate the older priests as much as they do the younger ones.

      I agree that the hierarchy need to act in the appointment of a new Bishop because all the unsettlement of the plan and no new bishop is not helping the Diocese.

    34. Teresina June 10, 2014 at 9:31 pm

      My post should have read that the plan seems to be putting "pressure put on priests to retire".

    35. banter June 10, 2014 at 9:39 pm

      I think pope Francis might be 77 yrs old Teresina.

      I too don't like all this talk of retirement.  It is not consistent with the catholic notion of priestly vocation.  It is the talk of the working world where people have jobs.  Priests don't have a job they have a vocation.  Just as a married person doesn't retire from being married so a priest doesn't either.   These poeple that talk about preistly retirement lack the imagination to construct and the church along any other lines than that of the secular world.  They lack true vision.

    36. withhope June 11, 2014 at 4:27 pm

      That a professed Catholic cannot 'see anything wrong' with open apostasy of a purported pope pretty much says all one needs to know about what the Novus Ordo has done to sensus Catholicus. The mission of the Apostles is to convert people, and to challenge those who are in false religions, not to support them in their dogged unbelief of God.

       

      Rorate Caeli tweet:
      -
      Sunday: 'Catholic'-Jewish-Muslim Joint Prayer (in Vatican)
      Monday: Orthodox Jews expel Christians from Cenacle
      Tuesday:Jihadists conquer Northern Iraq (ancient Christian cities).

       

    37. Teresina June 12, 2014 at 11:33 pm

      Prayer request for a young FSSP priest murdered and another one seriously wounded:

      URGENT PRAYER REQUEST
      FSSP Priests attacked in Phoenix, Arizona, 1 murdered, 1 critically wounded

      The Mater Misericordiae Mission, the Latin Mass community of Phoenix, Arizona, run by the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter (FSSP), was the scene of a terrible tragedy on Wednesday night, following the breaking and entering of their mission. 

      Father Kenneth Walker, FSSP, was murdered. Requiescat in pace. Please, pray also for the consolation of his family.

      Father Joseph Terra, FSSP, was severely wounded by the criminals, and is (at least to our knowledge as of this moment) hospitalized in critical condition. Please, pray for his health and his complete recovery, through the mercy of God Almighty.

      Finally, let us also pray for their parishioners and all who are affected for this ordeal. Let us pray for the law enforcement officers, may they accomplish justice according to God's will.

      Let us pray for the criminals, may they find conversion and salvation on this earth and avoid eternal damnation.

      ____________________________

       

      R.P. KENNETH WALKER
      TU ES SACERDOS IN ÆTERNUM
      SECUNDUM ORDINEM MELCHISEDECH

      Father Kenneth Walker, FSSP, at the moment of his Ordination, on May 19, 2012 (post from the time):

      http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/06/urgent-prayer-request-fssp-priests.html 

    38. Teresina June 14, 2014 at 2:01 pm

      An excellent sermon on mercy and justice given by Fr Kenneth Walker of the Fraternity of St Peter who was murdered on Wednesday – a great loss to the Church but he explains in his sermon that God will not prevent seomthing from happening if we do it of our own choosing, but He gives time for us to repent.  The police have reported on the poignant scene they came across of a critically injured Fr Terra bending over Fr Walker giving him the last rites.  Deo gratias for a life well lived and may he rest in peace. 

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=seXdJ_XxeBA

    39. Teresina June 14, 2014 at 11:55 pm

      Rubyshine, I thought you might be interested in an update claiming that the babies buried in a septic tank is a hoax:

      "Why That Story About Irish Babies "Dumped In A Septic Tank" Is A Hoax

      Few of us are inclined to look a gift horse in the mouth, and that applies in spades to journalists running with a sensational news story. But even by normal media standards, recent reports about the bones of 796 babies being found in the septic tank of an Irish orphanage betray a degree of cynicism and irresponsibility rarely surpassed by allegedly reputable news organizations.

      Although the media attributed the “dumped in a septic tank” allegation to Catherine Corless, a local amateur historian, she denies making it. Her attempt to correct the record was reported by the Irish Times newspaper on Saturday (see here) but has been almost entirely ignored by the same global media that so gleefully recycled the original suggestion. That suggestion, which  seems to have first surfaced in the Mail on Sunday, a London-based newspaper, reflected appallingly on the Sisters of Bon Secours, the order of Catholic nuns at the center of the scandal. An image was created of satanic depravity: wicked-witch nuns shoveling tiny human bodies into a maelstrom of human excrement and urine. In reality the chances that this image has any basis in reality are  vanishingly small.

      Today the Irish Times has published a reader’s letter that has further undercut the story. Finbar McCormick, a professor of geography at Queen’s University Belfast, sharply admonished the media for describing the children’s last resting place as a septic tank. He added: “The structure as described is much more likely to be a shaft burial vault, a common method of burial used in the recent past and still used today in many part of Europe.

      “In the 19th century, deep brick-lined shafts were constructed and covered with a large slab which often doubled as a flatly laid headstone. These were common in 19th-century urban cemeteries…..Such tombs are still used extensively in Mediterranean countries. I recently saw such structures being constructed in a churchyard in Croatia. The shaft was made of concrete blocks, plastered internally and roofed with large concrete slabs.

      Many maternity hospitals in Ireland had a communal burial place for stillborn children or those who died soon after birth. These were sometimes in a nearby graveyard but more often in a special area within the grounds of the hospital.”

      For anyone familiar with Ireland (I was brought up there in the 1950s and 1960s),  the story of nuns consciously throwing babies into a septic tank never made sense. Although many of the nuns may have been holier-than-thou harridans, they were nothing if not God-fearing and therefore unlikely to treat human remains with the sort of outright blasphemy implied in the septic tank story.

       

      So what are we left with? One fact seems beyond dispute: conditions in Irish orphanages up to the 1960s (when the orphanage at the center of the uproar was shut down), were positively Dickensian. Certainly the death rate at many was shockingly high. But how should blame be apportioned? A major part of the problem would appear to have been the pervasive poverty of the time. Because they were so desperately underfunded, Irish orphanages were disgracefully overcrowded, which meant that when one baby caught an infection, they all caught it. Not the least of the hazards was tuberculosis, a then incurable disease that spread like wildfire in overcrowded conditions.

      The nuns who ran the orphanage have long since gone to their reward but if they could speak for themselves they would no doubt claim they were doing their best in appalling conditions. Certainly it is reasonable to suggest that Irish society generally had much to answer for. As for the nuns, they were so young when they entered religious life — typically in their late teens or early 20s — that they had little understanding of the secular world and were evidently short on managerial skills. Less forgivably, however, they took a highly puritanical attitude to the “fallen women” who had the misfortune to come under their purview.  Allegedly they even — in some cases at least — banned the use of anesthetics in childbirth, the better to ensure that mothers would atone for the “sin” of having an out-of-wedlock child.

      At the end of the day, the verifiable facts that have emerged so far amount merely to a strong story for the media of  one small country. The one “fact” that turned all this from a disturbing national story into a screaming global sensation is one that is almost certainly false."

      http://www.forbes.com/sites/eamonnfingleton/2014/06/09/that-story-about-irish-babies-in-a-septic-tank-is-a-media-hoax/

    40. Rubyshine June 15, 2014 at 8:53 pm

      Yes that is interesting. I think they've been badly written, speculative articles on both side, but my issue was never with the mass grave itself, but more that I think it's nice to identify and acknowledge them.

      Mass graves serve a valid purpose in many situations and times have changed in terms of how we view infant death but the grief is real and identification of this and other mass graves may help people.

      A relative had a still born baby fifty years ago. She never saw the or held the baby and does not know if it was a boy or girl. It was buried in a mass grave at the hospital. They tried to trace the burial years later but were unsuccessful. 

      It was an era of not talking about such things but the grief is still evident. I believe Christchurch has made a memorial garden for the babies from their hospital from the same era, for families to visit.  I think that's a compassionate thing of the city to have done. It doesn't say we believe we were wrong, it says we understand your pain.

    41. Teresina June 16, 2014 at 3:43 pm

      Yes, Rubyshine, I agree with you.  The locals themselves I think have made a lovely shrine but the problem is they don't know for sure if they are the interred remains of children or what the locals presume a mass grave dating back to the famine as there are many such unmarked graves all over Ireland.  So I think the local bishop is right to call for an inquiry over this because otherwise we may never know the truth, and the Catholic bashing that has gone on over this will continue.

    42. Teresina June 16, 2014 at 3:51 pm

      Rubyshine, Already this woman's claims are disputed and they don't even know if was a septic tank as she has claimed – the fact that it is a mass grave has also been disputed:

      "Ms. Corless surmised that the children’s bodies were interred in a septic tank behind the home, and she then met a local man who said he had seen bones there while playing as a child. While even she acknowledges that the conclusion was a circumstantial leap, once it was picked up in the local press, it was sensational enough to rocket around the globe, becoming a story of a disused septic tank brimming with bones.

      Since the news broke last week, however, some of the assumptions that led Ms. Corless to her conclusion have been challenged, not least by the man she cited, Barry Sweeney, now 48, who was questioned by detectives about what he saw when he was 10 years old. “People are making out we saw a mass grave,” he said he had told the detectives. “But we can only say what we seen: maybe 15 to 20 small skeletons.”

      http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/10/world/europe/tuam-ireland-796-irish-children-died-historian-searches-for-burial-records.html?_r=0

    43. bamac June 17, 2014 at 12:14 pm

      http://www.churchmilitant.tv/daily/?today=2014-06-16

       

      Change of topic … i have just watched this Vortex episode revealing what is happening to our Holy Catholic Church in one part of America …….. sad is not a strong enough word for it .

      I have heard some criticising Michael Voris claiming that he is a " Bishop Basher" or words to that effect … what think you about this particular bishop and what he is busy doing ?  PleaseGod things will never get to a similar situation here in NZ.

      Mrs Mac

       

    44. Teresina June 18, 2014 at 12:49 am

      Mrs Mac, thanks for that link.  I have to say that Michael Voris is the only one who is telling it like it is.  I fully agree with everything he says and I do believe that it is time to cut off monetary support.  Here is a report from Rorate Caeli on the dismissal of Fr Wylie for speaking out against the closure of Holy Innocents.  The report comes with a laughing photo of the roly poly Cardinal Dolan – however, I'm sure  he won't be laughing for too much longer with the news of how much his diocese is in debt:

      http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/06/on-dismissal-of-fr-wylie-from-new-york.html

    45. bamac June 18, 2014 at 1:04 pm

      Have just watched this link with the homily at an ordination …. I hope that you will get as much from all that he had to share about the priesthood as I did.

         Some tie back some one gave us a link to an ordination here at

      st Patricks in Auckland …. how different is this homily from that in Auckland!

      Mrs Mac

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6cjb-14VqI&feature=youtu.be