The Sunday Scrum

“So far as a man may be proud of a religion rooted in humility, I am very proud of my religion; I am especially proud of those parts of it that are most commonly called superstition. I am proud of being fettered by antiquated dogmas and enslaved by dead creeds (as my journalistic friends repeat with so much pertinacity), for I know very well that it is the heretical creeds that are dead, and that it is only the reasonable dogma that lives long enough to be called antiquated.” (G. K. Chesterton; Autobiography, 1936)

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    Comments: 202

    1. Teresina March 23, 2014 at 11:24 pm

      Never thought I'd see this but just goes to show that the wearing of the habit is no protection:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=TpaQYSd75Ak

       

    2. Teresina March 23, 2014 at 11:58 pm

      Well, we know that Pope Francis hasn't given "The Voice" up for Lent and nor has Sr Cristina – the words "new church" sprung immediately to mind when I read this … 

      "The latest episode of ‘The Voice’ Italy featured a contestant who was a certified Catholic nun, rocking her way into the hearts of the judges, the live and television audience, and yes, even Pope Francis who announced he is going to vote for Sister Cristina Scuccia. Her rendition of Alicia Keys’ ‘No One’ captivated the entire country and beyond.

      With the Pope’s endorsement and over 60 Million Catholics in Italy, Sister Cristina’s victory is almost assured."

       

      http://adobochronicles.com/tag/pope-francis/

    3. Teresina March 24, 2014 at 11:35 am

      Keeping with the GK Chesterton theme that Boanerges opened his post with, another Chesterton quote which I think is also very apt for the times we are living in.  When we see nuns (even worse dressed in habits) thrilling the world and being backed up by the Pope I think we're in a pretty sorry state indeed … 

      "We do not want, as the newspapers say, a church that will move with the world. We want a church that will move the world."  -G.K. Chesterton

    4. Rubyshine March 24, 2014 at 5:56 pm

      I don't have a problem with a nun doing this.

      Although I understand the idea that there should be a sense of dignity when wearing a habit, I think religious people should be seen to be having fun and filled with joy. The backstage reactions of her nun friends are also so very real, in their excitement in their friends success.

      I imagine a woman who has always fancied singing in front of an audience, whose friends encouraged her to give it a go. She's singing an innocent enough song, and there is nothing raunchy in her performance. 

      Yes familiarity can breed contempt, but I think it makes her a relateable person who is having fun. I don't begrudge anyone a little fun. It's like being able to have a joke with the parish priest. Doesn't mean I respect him, or his role any less.

    5. banter March 24, 2014 at 6:26 pm

      That's a great quote from Chesterton there Boanerges.

      Can't say I'm too bothered by Sr Cristina either.  There's something pretty innocent about her enthusiasm and that of her fellow sisters to one side.  I would be more bothered if she was on stage in some dubious outfit singing some dubious song.  She isn't; she's decided to wear her habit for all to see.  Remarkable.  One of those judges was moved nearly to tears.  It's actually kind of neat.

    6. Teresina March 24, 2014 at 8:16 pm

      Totally disagree with you, Rubyshine and Banter.  It's not a matter of being a killjoy and saying nuns shouldn't have fun but I don't call that fun.  It's a matter of being worldly and acting up like a popstar.  No doubt this nun has a good voice but it's not appropriate to be belting out pop singles on stage with guys literally covered in tats and no doubt on drugs.  For one thing, if I had a daughter I wouldn't want her engaging in a competition like that and I think the mother superior should be more responsible.

      I am dismayed at Catholics who aren't concerned about it.  Would you be equally happy if Blessed Mother of Teresa belted out a pop song like that on stage or if the Queen did?  Would you be happy if your parish priest took to the stage and belted out a pop song?  I am afraid I wouldn't take any of them seriously and I doubt this nun will remain in the convent for long, as happened with the Singing Nun who actually committed suicide in the long run.  

    7. Teresina March 24, 2014 at 8:27 pm

      Yes, this looked very cute at the time and innocent but it led to the sister leaving the convent and life as a lesbian and ultimate suicide.  Would any of that occurred if she had not found fame and fortune but had retained her dignity and vocation as a nun?  What lies in store for Sr Cristina?

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10mMDtpfcQM

    8. Boanerges March 24, 2014 at 9:11 pm

      "No doubt all on drugs"… Really? 

       

    9. Rubyshine March 24, 2014 at 9:34 pm

      I'd be 100% ok with my daughter engaging in this competition. The tattoos don't bother me. I doubt they're all on drugs, but I'd expect my 25 yr old daughter to be able to manage herself around drugs. I would expect that the Mother Superior had a lengthy conversation with this nun around her aims, and aspirations in entering this competition, and discussed potential issues and risks. I'm confident the mother superior understands more about this young nun than I do.

      I'm really ok with anyone singing a song in public. Provided that a) they have a decent voice worth listening to and b) the song is inoffensive. I would be surprised if the Queen did it, but I wouldn't think less of her.

      I hope Sr Cristina comes to no harm, but if she ends up living as a lesbian and committing suicide, then I really feel there are bigger issues at play than whether or not she enters a singing competition.

      As an aside, what I like about the Voice, as opposed to other compeitions like Idol, is that you have to be good to get on the show. They do not set up bad singers simply to ridicule them. They treat the competitors with dignity and respect in how they critique their work.

    10. Teresina March 24, 2014 at 9:42 pm

      "Really?"  What world do you inhabit, Boanerges?  Take a look and tell me you think these are a nice innocent lot of four who don't touch them, the types you would like your children to hang out with or maybe hang out with yourself?

       

      http://www.melty.it/the-voice-2-j-ax-raffaella-carra-noemi-e-pelu-le-curiosita-a123309.html

    11. Teresina March 24, 2014 at 9:58 pm

      Rubyshine, this is a nun.  Seriously, as a Catholic you're ok with this?  I'm not okay with the Mother Superior because I think it's more about fame and fortune than about this nun's vocation.  This is the real problem with the laity in the Church these days.  Most have lost the plot.  Most can't see that a vocation to the religious life is something special.  Someone chosen by God to do good for the world, not to be cheapened by joining the world on stage with a bunch of entertainers. There are very few entertainers these days that are not on drugs.  That's the reality and you're fooling yourselves if you think that's not the case.  How many have committed suicide or died of drug overdoses?  

      What about the nuns with beautiful voices that you don't hear, reserved for God, the way it should be.  If that nun hadn't been a nun she would be just another voice in a competition.  Yes, they were clapping wildly laughing and enjoying it.  Why?  Because the idea of a nun desporting herself in such a manner delights them, and I would expect more of Catholics than to join with them.  

    12. Abenader March 24, 2014 at 10:01 pm

      Agree Teresina

      Conduct unbecoming. More of the madness existing today in Mother church.

    13. Dominican March 24, 2014 at 10:04 pm

      I  have just watched "that nun".  it is appallingly unbecoming.  She looked ridiculous.

    14. grocersgirl March 24, 2014 at 10:14 pm

      You have problems with cardinals too Teresina?

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSLgGZiGI3Q

       

    15. Teresina March 24, 2014 at 10:19 pm

      grocersgirl, yes, I do.  I agree with Dominican and Abenader, conduct unbecoming and an example of the madness of some in Holy Mother Church.

    16. Rubyshine March 24, 2014 at 10:22 pm

      I don't delight in her. I agree with Dominican that she looked ridiculous. In the same way Prince William looked ridiculous when he got on stage and sang with some pop star.

      They look ridiculous because they do not fit comfortably in that space, so it makes me cringe to watch them, but I don't think they are wrong to do it.

      I still don't presume to know what the mother superior was thinking in allowing this.

       

    17. Rubyshine March 24, 2014 at 10:26 pm

      I understand why some might take issue with the nun involved in that kind of pop entertainment where someone is making money off her. I really really don't see the issue with the cardinal.

      He's leading a song at an event for catholics. Presumably it's a very nice song. It's not about being worldly or a pop-star. 

      Maybe I've been made to sing at work too many times :)

    18. Werahiko March 24, 2014 at 10:35 pm

      For heavens sake people, listen to yourselves! She's called a nun; she's not called a fun! She's meant to be really really unhappy at the thought of souls falling like leaves into hell and wandering about with one of her sisters uttering prayers for the overcoming of the Novus Ordo Mass, and looking furtively about in case anyone sees her adjust her cilice when it stops hurting. You would think our Blessed Lord hung out with people drinking and having a good time at weddings, and that there was something to celebrate in life. I can't believe people would accept this sort of thing! What's next? Nude in paintings in the Vatican? Holding feast days in honor of saints? Celebrating Christmas? These so-called religious should remember their vows of poverty, chastiy, obedience and dourness, return to the convent, get down on their knees and pray for forgiveness to the Glum True God.

    19. Teresina March 24, 2014 at 10:37 pm

      Well, here's another example I am sure you'll see nothing wrong with this either.  It would be easier to ask what some Catholics do have a problem with?

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=9Zoa38zMPNs

    20. Teresina March 24, 2014 at 10:40 pm

      Werahiko, finally you have said something positive even though for you it is mere jest.  Perhaps you should go back to swinging in the trees with your friends?

    21. Abenader March 24, 2014 at 10:42 pm

      Cuzzy bro

      Our Lord was always concerned with the salvation of souls. In which way would these sort of antics lead souls to heaven (or even 'win' true converts). Which of the following of Goodness, Beauty, Truth is on display here? Instead, with the modern world, it's all about that (another) superficial word, "fun". So fun consists of what; behaving like a clown? 

      As for dourness, that sounds almost pre-Vatican II ay? And then the windows were opoened to the world (to let the fun in)……….

    22. Rubyshine March 24, 2014 at 10:45 pm

      In general I love Harlem shakes, and have seen some really good ones.

      I get the humour behind this one, but it crosses the line for me. Can't fully explain why, because on ine hand I see it as good-humoured fun.

      My students begged me to do one with them. They kept trying to ambush me into doing one, but I refused because of it ending up on the net and how it could be perceived by others.

    23. Teresina March 24, 2014 at 11:08 pm

      Rubyshine, it more than crosses the line because it is sacriligous, which is:  the usurpation or diverting of property (whether movable or immovable) intended for the maintenance of the clergy or serving for the ornamentation of the church to other uses, constitute real sacrileges.

      The young boy using the sign of the cross in that manner is a mockery of the sign of the cross.

      I would think dancing around in a habit is sacreligous .  And I was surprised at this nun giving the devil horn salute on another lengthier video when she engages in discussion with the judges.  She seems pretty senseless to me on that video and overcome with all the fuss.

       I think you need to have a look at the definition of sacrilegous.  It's a matter for many Catholics of lack of education – that's why I would expect more from Pope Francis than to be condoning this sort of thing.  

      http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13321a.htm  

      I saw an article on Novus Ordo Watch where I think they have a point and I think that it's high time many in the Church acting in this irresponsible manner took a long hard look at themselves.  A lot of what the novusordo watch say on this is true, unfortunately.

      http://www.novusordowatch.org/wire/suor-cristina-nun-talent.htm

       

    24. Teresina March 24, 2014 at 11:29 pm

      Some time ago on this blog John Whyte made the comment that the Pius X people dress funny.  So I've put this video up especially for him to show him what a nonsense he spoke.  What a change to see such good young people.  

      "From Rorate Caeli, a beautiful video (press on CC or captions for subtitles in English) produced by the German District of the Society of Saint Pius X (SSPX): the wine of Tradition is always permanent and always new, it is always ready to fill new wineskins with love for Christ and His Church.

       

      May Christ bring all traditional-minded Catholics together: the true Way of the Cross (Kreuzweg)* is filled with joy and hope."
      _______________
      *The video is a response to a newly-released anti-Catholic German motion picture with this title (Kreuzweg).

       

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=FWCrSF_z9UA

    25. Teresina March 25, 2014 at 12:07 am

      From Novusordo Watch – it seems they have a sense of humour:

      "Immediately after her performance, Cristina was interviewed by the judges, whom she told she was expecting to receive a phone call from "Pope" Francis. With the latter's track record, this may very well happen, and we suspect he'll give her his famous "thumbs up" and encourage her in this shameful and diabolical work. See the list of links at the end of this post for related Novus Ordo scandals, some of which involve Francis himself."

      They've definitely got a point – every day since the election of Pope Francis one wakes up and wonders what is going to happen next … 

    26. Rubyshine March 25, 2014 at 7:19 am

      Yes it was the use of the sign of the cross, and also the inclusion of the thurible and (I don't know what the priest is holding is called) that bothered me.

      Dancing in general does not bother me, nor does singing.

      I do question what Sr Cristina hopes to achieve, and like the article you link above I questioned what kind of evangelising she thought she would achieve, but the act of singing and dancing for a crowd, and the nature of her performance does not bother me.

      If her mother superior approved her doing this, then I am content with that.

    27. Dominican March 25, 2014 at 8:28 am

      I am concerned about the "scream and salute" she gives during the interview – keep watching as the judges  make their responses.  It's all in Italian but sister's gesture is for all to see and universally understood  – she must be incredibly naive surely?

    28. Teresina March 25, 2014 at 10:40 am

      I agree, Dominican, I think she is sweet and naive.  But the older nuns jumping up and down in the wings should have more sense but perhaps dollar signs are clouding their eyes?  If you turn on the captions both of the heavily tatooed judges refer to themselves as devils and she does make the devil's salute and lets out some kind of odd squeal.  I think she's got so caught up in the moment she doesn't realise what she's doing, but has since opened a Twitter account.  What's it all coming to when even nuns in habits behave like that?  I have to say I expect more from nuns in habits as the habit is a sign of dying to the world – but not in this nun's case it seems.  Is the Church becoming what it says on the tin "new order"?  It's certainly  not the Church I was brought up in.  Sadly things are worsening under Pope Francis.

    29. Boanerges March 25, 2014 at 10:48 am

      "Really?"  What world do you inhabit, Boanerges? 

      One that doesn't get offended by a nun who enjoys singing and shares her enthusiasm for it with the world. 

      Another way to look at this "affront" is to consider the impact that this one nun may have had on the world. Young people these days have very little direct experience of or interaction with nuns. They have not been taught by them in our schools; rarely see them in our Churches; and possibly only view them as withdrawn people who do not interact with society. Is it really such a bad thing to see one of them singing a song (even if a little misguided) in public?

      Teresina, do you feel this strongly about The Priests? They have also engaged with popular culture. They choose to record CD's, make them available in mainstream stores, and perform tours. They might even get enthusiatic about doing it. 

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Priests 

       

       

       

    30. Dominican March 25, 2014 at 11:48 am

      The Priests conduct themselves in an entirely different way and always appropriately.  Have you ever watched the "extras" to their DVD's.  Holy and prayerful men and yes they are enthusiastic about what they do – for charity I believe.

    31. Teresina March 25, 2014 at 12:58 pm

      Boanerges, I am certainly offended by the fact that she chose a pop song and behaved in the manner of a pop star and I certainly don't think the way she behaved is a role model for young people at all.  Really, she is saying that kind of life, which is rife with drugs – despite your disbelief – is fine.  Are you happy that she gave the twin horn salute?   Are you happy with the two judges referring to themselves as the devil?  I don't have children but I can speak from the experience of my cousins who some have had their sons in particular get involved with rock and heavy metal – one they were very concerned of with suicide because of the gothic type of music that he was interested in – thankfully he grew out of it.  The majority don't appear to, and whether you like to admit it or not most of them are on drugs.  If you search the internet you will find some judges on the Voice in some countries have been charged with possession of drugs. 

      We have reached a pretty sorry day when someone like yourself, responsible for students, can only view it as a way to relate to young people by getting nuns to act in such a silly manner and cavorting on stage.   There are other young people depicted in the SSPX video above who obviously don't have to resort to such things and yet they are treated as the abnormal ones and scoffed at.

      Although I think that the Priests perform different types of music, and I have one of their CDs, if I am honest I don't agree with them engaging in this type of thing either.  I believe it's an either/or – either you're a priest and a nun or you're an entertainer.  Those who try to combine both don't have a good track record from what I have seen.

      What you say seems in absolute contrast to the quote you give of GK Chesterton where he says "So far as a man may be proud of a religion rooted in humility".  Well, of course he is talking of the Faith we used to the religion we used to have and certainly humility didn't involve taking to the stage and gyrating about. 

    32. Teresina March 25, 2014 at 1:07 pm

      Here is a quote from Novusordowatch.  I do think they have a point.  I do think this is the reason why Boarges and those educated after Vatican II don't have a problem with it and why those of us brought up in the Church prior to Vatican II do:

      "Sister" Christina must have forgotten as she belted out this song with somewhat suggestive lyrics (see here), and not for the honor and glory of God but to receive the adulation and applause of the world. But then again, at age 25, it is clear that she was entirely raised and educated in the Novus Ordo Sect, not the Catholic Church, so perhaps we can excuse her behavior on those grounds alone. What she has done is utterly scandalous, indecent, immodest, and sacrilegious. 

      Having been fed nothing but Modernist pseudo-Catholic theology for the last 50+ years, Novus Ordos (that is, "modern Catholics") may not think too much of this and even believe this to be "cool" and "awesome", simply another great new way for Catholics to "reach out" to the world. This is the garbage people have been fed for decades, but nothing could be further from the truth. Yes, Suor Cristina herself has said her intent is to "evangelize", but only a fool or a hopelessly deluded person could believe that one can spread the light of the Gospel by sinful and scandalous means. God cannot be served through mortal sin.

      Things like this, even if well-intentioned, always end up the same way in the long run: They do not lead the world to Christ, but make Christ into a mockery before the world. The world does not become Catholic, but Catholics become worldly. There is no better proof of this than the Novus Ordo religion itself, 50 years after the Second Vatican Council opened the church to the world. It is virtually powerless before the world, and most people do not really take it seriously.

      But be that as it may: Genuine Roman Catholics are terribly outraged at this sordid spectacle perpetrated by Sister Cristina, as it causes grave offense against Almighty God, His Church, and the True Faith, which in most people's minds is represented by this woman."

      I certainly agree that this is "the garbage that young people in the Church have been fed with for 50 years" and it's time to wake up.

    33. Teresina March 25, 2014 at 1:08 pm

      I would substitute "Church of Nice" for "Novus Ordo Sect".

    34. grocersgirl March 25, 2014 at 3:19 pm

      Teresina, my small exploration of this site indicates that you seem to be a frequent commenter, but I find it disturbing that you choose to use a website such as novusordowatch to support your views.  Being an inquisitive type I generally follow up things that other commenters say, and since I had never come across "novusordowatch" before I have spent a little time browsing it.  To be frank, I am horrified at its depths of nastiness.  Are you aware that this site regards all the popes since Pius XII as apostates and heretics and describes our Church as a "modernist Vatican II sect"?  People who believe this are called sede-vacantists and one could feel sorry for them were they not so vicious.

      Sadly, my initial delight in coming across a NZ website like Being Frank, with the promise of some reasonable and literate discussion about oiur church such as Boanerges' posting at the beginning of this thread, has been short-lived with the discovery that, like so many other blogs, it has been hi-jacked by commenters with a disposition for wailing and gnashing of teeth. It is a shame that "NZ Catholics being frank about their Roman Catholic faith" could not display some of the joy in the Lord with which Pope Francis is entrancing the world.

    35. Boanerges March 25, 2014 at 5:17 pm

      Teresina, play the ball not the man. 

    36. Boanerges March 25, 2014 at 6:05 pm

      grocersgirl,

      there are a wide variety of opinions expressed here, some of which are reasonable, others that you don't even bother trying to continue engaging with after an initial joust because it does get nasty. Of course, those dishing it out don't recognise it as such, they think that by outlasting and overcommenting that they have somehow won or been proved right. 

      I notice another regular contributor here has been noticably absent over the last month or so, probably for the hard time she got for expressing her post-Vatican II opinion. It would be a real shame if this site, which I think is NZ's main one for expressing Catholic faith, left little scope for others to express their opinions without fear of ridicule or personal insult. 

      I for one look forward to your future input grocersgirl. Welcome aboard! 

    37. Teresina March 25, 2014 at 6:25 pm

      Boanerges, I couldn't help my response to you because I have up until now considered you on the conservative side and certainly didn't expect you to come out on the side of a pop star nun in habit.   Unfortunately I do tend to express my thoughts but it's just that, being forthright, not intended to be unkind.  

    38. Teresina March 25, 2014 at 6:31 pm

      grocergirl, I came across novusordo watch in relation to the "pop star" nun – I agree with their comments, insofar as they are noting that Catholics for the last 50 years have not been catechised and, therefore, tend to be swept up with worldly things rather than spiritual.   I certainly think Pope Francis is being embraced by the world because he is of the world.  

    39. Teresina March 25, 2014 at 6:39 pm

      Boanerges, I think you need to take note of all of the posts and actually who has started out first playing the person rather than the ball and then when they get a response in kind they cry "poor me".  And I have to say, Boanerges, I do expect something more from our Catholic teachers and I'm sorry if you consider that is playing the man and not the ball.  It's an honest comment.

       

    40. Rubyshine March 25, 2014 at 6:59 pm

      I am tired of being accused of not being a "real" catholic whenever I express a more liberal view eg. "Genuine Roman Catholics are terribly outraged at this sordid spectacle perpetrated by Sister Cristina"

      I'm also tired of the propaganda inherent in phrases like "church of nice" and "novus ordo sect" It doesn't prove a point, and it isn't good debate.

      To the point in hand, I still don't think there was anything suggestive in the lyrics of Sr Cristina's song, I still don't see any harm in her entering this competition.

      Furthermore can someone explain the concern with the cardinal leading a song at a catholic convention? 

      grocersgirl welcome, it can get a bit one-sided around here at times, but generally there is a broad range of opinions and often good discussion.

       

    41. John Whyte March 25, 2014 at 7:14 pm

      Hi Rubyshine Boanerges & grocersgirl,

      I admit to having a rhino hide and not really caring what I'm called.  

      Boanerges, I think you are wrong to call them 'post vatican II ideas'.  The commentator was jumped on (repeatedly) for daring to suggest that the church was not as rosy or as fine in the 1950s as was suggested.  I'll reiterate my call for a more comprehensive comment policy.  

       

    42. Benedicta March 25, 2014 at 7:16 pm

      Dear Boarnerges

      I am only absent because I gave you guys up for Lent!

      But while I'm one this one post (yes yes yes)…..I think Sr Cristina was fantastic. I think they treated her well and with honour….and if they mocked Satan well who better to mock. For what its worth I think J-Ax had a sort of spiritual experience.

      That problem that underpins Sr Cristina and Cardinal Tagle….is this….Nature and Grace.

      Our resident sede-vacantists are swinging on that tree of error but they suppose it isn't.

      It goes like this…..the world is wholly profane. Sr Cristina has entered the world of profanity when she had actually entered the realm of holines.

      Now all good virtues and graces and gifts are ALL from the Lord and He bestows them on His creatures….hence J-Ax tears I think are a Grace as I think that Sr Cristina's beautiful voice is a gift. Likewise the beautiful unity and friendship expressed in Cardinal Tagle and his people.

      The words of Sr Cristina's song are good words. When my husband heard her he said that no one would come between Sr and Jesus. It is a modern rendition of the Song of Songs?

      What about the Baroque Jesuit ballet, Vivaldi? What about the Franciscans for Renewal?

      Hey Teresina I bet you didn't know the Jesuit's did ballet did you?

    43. Rubyshine March 25, 2014 at 7:18 pm

      Teresina, how do you feel about this harlem shake https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePMv_W4fG50&feature=youtu.be

      To my mind it shows a priest having good fun with his students in a very playful and innocent way. But perhaps others view it differently?

    44. John Whyte March 25, 2014 at 7:24 pm

        Werahiko, 

      You make me giggle :)  Particularly the 'glum true God'.  Needs more references to capitalism and the swiss guard however to be a stellar comment.  

       

    45. Teresina March 25, 2014 at 7:25 pm

      John Whyte, I support the idea for such a policy and that includes denigrating the elderly and the SSPX which you are guilty of.

      For your edification the link to the SSPX video showing a fine, healthy bunch of young Catholic people dressed quite normally not in any way as you have alleged:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=FWCrSF_z9UA

       

    46. John Whyte March 25, 2014 at 7:29 pm

      Benedicta, 

      You haven't touched on the real issue, there were tattoos!!!!! and drugs!!!!! You know, the exact things that aren't used by our check out opperators, waitresses, and retail assistants :)  

      Rubyshine, I don't know if you read standingonmyhead over at Pathos,but Father D has some very interesting comments (not usually whole articles) about how to do something for its own sake is very childlike and christian when it comes to the world of leisure.  Now that I have a 4yr old and a 2yr old who just run around for fun, and babble for fun, I understand him a bit better.  Our leisure is supposed to be for no real reason, which is why sports, and silly music videos are fantastic.  (Letting them be recorded and put on Youtube is perhaps not the most prudent).  

    47. Teresina March 25, 2014 at 7:33 pm

      Benedicta, hey, funny  how you all jump on together, isn't it?  No surprise from your comments.   I fully expect the Church of NIce to support what this nun in habit is doing.  Due to lack of catechesis over the past 50 years, I don't expect any of you to understand what others see that you don't see.

      Someone mentioned that reading this blog reminds them of when the bastile was stormed the prisoners were so used to living life like that they they didn't want to be freed.  In like vein,  you are all happy in your reverie and don't like being shocked out of it.  I think that about sums it up.  

    48. Teresina March 25, 2014 at 7:40 pm

      Rubyshine, I prefer how the priests and bishops comport themselves in this Juventutum video, they leave the performing to the performers.  Enjoy!

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLmGbqx8DI4

    49. Boanerges March 25, 2014 at 7:55 pm

      Teresina, looking back through this thread, I made the comment "really?" in reply to your assertation that they were all on drugs. I don't see that as personal against you, just querying your comment which in my opinion is not factual or defendable. I don't think I've made any "poor me" comments, but I do take exception to you questioning my commitment and integrity as a Catholic educator, which you have done twice in this thread, simply because I am not condemning this nun for her actions.

      You are right in that I probably am a conservative at heart however that doesn't mean that I will share every opinion that you do. We are probably at different places on the continuum. I admire your passion but do think taking a deep breath before hitting "post comment" might not be a bad strategy at times :)  

      Benedicta I wasn't referring to you :) PaulineM was who I was meaning. I didn't always agree with her either, but some of the responses she received were in my opinion beyond the realm of reasoned discussion.    

    50. Teresina March 25, 2014 at 8:09 pm

      Boanerges, no, I was commenting about some comments that Benedicta has made in the past and John Whyte that no one makes any comment about and finds them acceptable.  Comments such as theirs often lead to similar comments back..

      I was brought up in a different generation to you, Boanerges, and if I am forthright it is because I was taught to be, especially when it comes to the Faith.  I am sorry if you don't like my comment but I stand by the fact that someone, who is a Catholic teacher, and who can look at those judges covered in tats, not consider for a moment that they might be on drugs, and can't see anything wrong with a nun getting herself involved with such people then I am concerned about that.  I think there is a lot of naivety being shown in this by some people.    

    51. Rubyshine March 25, 2014 at 8:29 pm

      John Whyte – I think innocent fun should be put out in the public eye. Our children are bombarded with imagery of drugs and drinking, young people at out of control parties and overly sexualised music videos. So many young people don't know how to relax and have joyous fun, they have forgotten how to play.

      Also it doesn't hurt my feelings to be told I am not a "real" catholic, because deep down I suspect I am not, so it just confirms a thought in my own mind and makes me want to give up. There are so many rules, and so often I get it wrong, and many ideas I rail against (although less and less so as time goes by). But when I'm told I am not a genuine catholic because I'm ok with a nun singing and dancing in public then I think, "wait? What? where was that rule?" and then I think, "oh well maybe that explains it then. Maybe the catholic church isn't for me, with all of these rules I don't understand" It makes the temptation to give up and walk away a little stronger. Telling me my faith is part of a sect does not help me step forward in faith.

      Finally I will fully admit to not being well catechised. I am slowly learning it for myself. But pointing the finger at the younger generations for not being well-catechised achieves nothing. Why was the older generation so quick to let it go? Where were they in the fight to catechise the young? Sure I'm uneducated, but where were the teachers?

    52. Rubyshine March 25, 2014 at 8:31 pm

      Oh and Teresina, that video you shared looked amazing!

      How do you feel about Priests making jokes and being funny when they speak?

      I'm teasing.  :)

    53. banter March 25, 2014 at 8:53 pm

      Rubyshine,

      I couldn't disagree with you more regarding your last but one post.  Everything you write tells me you are Catholic through and through.  What you possess is the ability to question which is essentially the basis and essence of catholic thinking and belief.  No practise or belief in the church has ever arisen and become part tradition without much prayer and thought and the sort of debate that rages here, the sort of questions that you raise, the sort of astute observations that you make.  What's on your side is a healthy dose of humility.  So don't doubt and be put off by others who rather give off an air of superiority claiming some historical advantage in having known pre-Vatican 2 church.  Therefore we simply can't understand they say.  What tosh.

    54. Benedicta March 25, 2014 at 8:55 pm

      Awwww Gee Boarnerges I thought you missed me!

      Rubyshine…. Satan knows the Bible backwards (literally), the Catechism and all the Doctrines of the Church and believes in Jesus and also Our Lady….but Satan has no charity. Teresina's take on this isn't Catholic and it certainly isn't GK Chesterton. It is closer to Calvinism etc etc. The Italians never turned into the Irish or French because they didn't get Jansenised….(i.e. Calvinised Catholicism). Rigorism and laxity are to be avoided at all costs.

       

    55. banter March 25, 2014 at 9:01 pm

      Yes, catholic Calvinism. Rather dark in outlook. It is also interestingly very poor accepting any form of correction at all. Faced with criticism it lashes out nastily.

       

      For the record, I thought Boanerges was referring to you too Benedicta!

    56. John Whyte March 25, 2014 at 9:04 pm

      Rubyshine, 

      I think you've almost hit the nail on the head.  The church's rules, dogmas, and teachings are designed to be signposts to entice us and lead us to that divine romance with our Lord and Saviour.  

      Catachisis is supposed to help guide us by illumination of the signposts.  

      Instead what it is often turned into is a mini law school filled with minute details.  In a very english attitude of 'the law is an ass, but its the law so we follow it'.  

      As a catholic we need to embody the twin virtues of wisdom by questioning and understanding the signposts (so we can stand on the shoulders of giants as it were) and obendience by following them anyway when we do not understand the way.  

      To take abuse that you are not properly catachised is akin to being an undergraduate student being told by a PHd graduate you are not properly educated.  True you might not have a PHd but from everything you've mentioned I think you are doing very well ;)  

    57. Teresina March 25, 2014 at 9:04 pm

      Rubyshine, I think the problem is that Catholics are no longer used to hearing even priests make any comment about what is wrong and what is right, that when you hear someone stand up and say, "Hey, that is wrong, you shouldn't be doing that" then it comes as a shock.

      I think the fact that there are Catholics in the Church who think a different way from the run of the mill is something that should make someone think, "Why do they think differently from me?  What is the reason behind that?"

      If you have someone agreeing with you all the time this will be a pretty poor blog.

      If someone says, "Hey, why should a nun think that joining the world and being a pop star is better than what she already has?"  What is wrong with that?  Surely, it is the Catholic thing to think that the call to the priestly and religious life is the highest calling one can have.  But, no, not on Being Frank.  If you comment on Being Frank you seem to be expected to think that, "Hey, this is great.  This nun is cool".  Well, sorry, no, I don't.  I think this nun has lost sight of her calling. I think that the older nuns putting her into the circle of those who quite probably are drug takers and people living sinful lives and in a sense joining them, is not protective of her but exploitive of her.

      I thought that being Frank was a group of Conservative Catholics.  I expect this sort of thing from bloggers on the Fishwrap but not on Being Frank.  To me the highest calling in life is a priestly or religious vocation and lowering it in any way is not a good thing and I will never resile from that position because it is a Catholic position and one day in the future you may see that such things should not be debased.

    58. John Whyte March 25, 2014 at 9:04 pm

      And given that Banter had mentioned it, I thought Boanerges was talking about you too Benedicta.  

      (But if you are out there PaulineM, come back also!)

    59. John Whyte March 25, 2014 at 9:07 pm

      As Benedicta said "Rubyshine…. Satan knows the Bible backwards (literally), the Catechism and all the Doctrines of the Church and believes in Jesus and also Our Lady….but Satan has no charity." I'd add "and no humility"  But it is still QFT

    60. Teresina March 25, 2014 at 9:09 pm

      John Whyte, all the things that you post leads me to believe that you have never truly converted.  Sorry, but that's how you come across.

    61. Boanerges March 25, 2014 at 9:18 pm

      I feel bad now… 

       

      "Benedicta, I've missed you!" :) 

    62. Teresina March 25, 2014 at 9:25 pm

      Rubyshine, if you listen to Banter you may never realise your potential as a Catholic.  He is stuck in a rut in the Bastille and doesn't want to be liberated – happy in mediocrity … 

    63. banter March 25, 2014 at 9:42 pm

      Cripes!

    64. banter March 25, 2014 at 9:43 pm

      Gulp!

    65. banter March 25, 2014 at 9:43 pm

      Gasp!

    66. Rubyshine March 25, 2014 at 9:43 pm

      Thank you for the encouragement people.

      Teresina, just because someone says,  "Hey, that is wrong, you shouldn't be doing that"  does not mean that person is right or that I have to agree with that person. It means they have a different opinion to me.

      I'm not shocked to be told I am wrong. I have been told I am wrong many times on this blog. I have re-considered many positions and some of my original positions I have radically changed, and some I have changed a little, and others not at all. It does fill me with a little angst that I've gotten something wrong, again. I'm a rule-follower by nature.

      Through the course of this discussion around Sr Cristina, I have kept reflecting on my position, and my original position has shifted.

      I still see absolutely nothing suggestive in the lyrics of her song, and think it's clear that she's directing the song at Jesus.

      I'm pretty relaxed about her being around people on drugs. Perhaps I'm naive in thinking being around drugs doesn't mean you have to take them.

      I agree that the priestly or religious vocations should not be lowered. We disagree over what lowers these things.

       

    67. Boanerges March 25, 2014 at 9:47 pm

      Jesus may have associated with the "druggies" of his day. 

    68. banter March 25, 2014 at 9:49 pm

      Wounded.  I wouldn't have said I was happy in mediocrity Teresina but it is possible I tread a fairly moderate path by some reckonings.  I think I was more trying to support rubyshine because I feared she was becoming disheartened by the debate.  I think it would be well to remember Teresina that others are often not as well read or even far on in the spiritual journey as you may be or you seem to be.  Sometimes gentle is good…

    69. banter March 25, 2014 at 9:50 pm

      Yes, bet that woman at the well had tats!

    70. Teresina March 25, 2014 at 9:51 pm

      Actually, here is a comment I read on another blog and it sums up for me how I feel too. Those on Being Frank who consider themselves Catholic – well …:

      "Sadly, I think this is Italy giving notice that it is officially "over" its catholic heritage. More and more younger generations even in Italy are abandoning religion in favor of atheism and generic spirituality. This sister was not evangelizing anyone despite her intentions. Instead she was more or less reducing her vocation down to the level of a side-show attraction. This has the effect of reducing a bride of christ to just another "career" a woman can choose instead of exalting the religious life as a sacred giving of everything you are for the love of god and the church. I also wonder how sister reconciled the many hours of preparation required to tape her audition with time spent NOT participating in the work required in her community. This maybe was an actress staging a publicity stunt for ratings? Maybe but something tells me thats not the case."

    71. Teresina March 25, 2014 at 9:53 pm

      Banter, you just don't get it … anyway go and read for yourself what Our Lord said to the woman at the well …

    72. banter March 25, 2014 at 10:00 pm

      Yes, have done that now Teresina.

    73. Teresina March 25, 2014 at 10:03 pm

      Banter, this is what I first said to Rubyshine and I can't see a thing wrong with it:

      "Rubyshine, this is a nun.  Seriously, as a Catholic you're ok with this?  I'm not okay with the Mother Superior because I think it's more about fame and fortune than about this nun's vocation.  This is the real problem with the laity in the Church these days.  Most have lost the plot.  Most can't see that a vocation to the religious life is something special.  Someone chosen by God to do good for the world, not to be cheapened by joining the world on stage with a bunch of entertainers. There are very few entertainers these days that are not on drugs.  That's the reality and you're fooling yourselves if you think that's not the case.  How many have committed suicide or died of drug overdoses?  

      What about the nuns with beautiful voices that you don't hear, reserved for God, the way it should be.  If that nun hadn't been a nun she would be just another voice in a competition.  Yes, they were clapping wildly laughing and enjoying it.  Why?  Because the idea of a nun desporting herself in such a manner delights them, and I would expect more of Catholics than to join with them."

      What I am is expressing is the Catholic view that I was taught.  Not my own personal dreamed up view.  I ask: why do the majority here not share that view?  Answer: perhaps none of them have been taught that the calling to the priestly and religious life is the highest calling a person can have.  The dignity that is due to the habit.  That is a great pity because you've been sold short and when you have expressed to you the teaching of the Church how have you responded?  Because it is the true teaching of the Church not being conveyed to recent generations but unchanged nevertheless.  

    74. Rubyshine March 25, 2014 at 10:12 pm

      I just think there is room for both. When I look at the second harlem shake I posted in the classroom, I see joyous, playful fun. I read the comments and see students with many fond memories of the school and that particular priest. They will remember him, in part, because of how he engaged with them. They will share this video with many people who will see a priest as a "real" person. His behaviour is not undignified.

      When I look at the video you posted, Teresina, I see young people engaging with their faith in a fun and thoughtful way. I'm sure they will take away many cherished memories of this event. The behaviour of the priests is dignified.

      I think there is room for many expressions of joy and faith, and many ways of engaging with people appropriately, depending on the context. I don't believe it has to be one or the other.

    75. Benedicta March 25, 2014 at 10:23 pm

      Teresina

      I don't think it matters that you don't or even do appreciate Sr Cristina's 'event'. You don't have to think it a good idea at all. Rubyshine was fairly circumspect about it….its your call. But there is so much elaboration about 'the scene'. Tattoos and pop music (pop?) correlate to bad morals and drugs. I know a number of younger people like this and they don't take drugs or even drink…and two I do know (though not Catholics like yourself) visit a few underprivileged youngstered to give them buddy support. Too much judgement. I rather liked J-Ax and would love to meet him.

      There is a mixed reception I would imagine re Sr Cristina…but she actually didn't do anything sinful or wrong….I don't think it means she will leave, become a lesbian and kill herself. What seems to be the case is that she has been interviewed by Italy TV and given her testimony. I don't understand Italian (some words) but the presentation was very sincere. I think there is a place for genuine talent being used…just because its popular music and not a classical aria doesn't of itself make it wrong. When I was in Hungary nuns were street preaching….how about that then.

      Did you look up the Jesuit's doing ballet in the 17th century?

      Art is art. Sometimes it goes a little too far for some…like when Michelangelo's people received clothing after he had painted them naked.

      I don't think we can always judge a book by its cover.

      Boarnerges…..YES Paulinem where are you…?

       

    76. Teresina March 25, 2014 at 10:26 pm

      Well, Rubyshine, we will just have to agree to differ on this.  What priests may do in fun in private is one thing but to put things on YouTube is another story.  I know that, for example, when a person is in uniform they are not allowed to bring that uniform into disrepute, no doubt that is why you don't see policemen or soldiers in uniform or others, Vatican Swiss Guard, for example, appearing on TV shows in uniform.  Sure, everyone has fun but there are things that are not of this world.  Imagine if Our Lord turned up and sang, rattled and shook on The Voice – I am sure He has a most beautiful voice and a sense of humour – but wouldn't that undercut his message somewhat?  Who would take him seriously?  Do we hear of any of the saints comporting themselves in public in that manner?  I mentioned Mother Teresa and others.  No, I don't see anything like that in public, yet I am sure they have shared a joke, pulled a face, but nothing that might lead to derision and something holy being lowered in public.  Would you be happy to perform like that priest and put it on YouTube?  Would your family thank you for it?

    77. Teresina March 25, 2014 at 10:30 pm

      No, Benedicta, I will never appreciate a nun in a habit belting out a song like a pop star, for me the two just don't equate.

      I think you should study up about the religious  life – what the Church teaches about it – that way you  may see why others – taught differently from you – are appalled by it.

      The point about the nun who committed suicide is that no one at the time thought it would ever lead to what it did but it goes to show that fame doesn't bring happiness as many seem to think it will.

    78. Benedicta March 25, 2014 at 10:31 pm

      Teresina

      What I am is expressing is the Catholic view that I was taught. 

      It doesn't make it perfectly correct. Irish congregations in NZ were riddled with Jansenism…probably why we had a blowout.

      Go and read Servais Pinkaers OP 'Morality the Catholic View'. A concise and short little book (he has some very loooonnnnggg ones as well!) which will give some very good ressourcement. Out with law and in with virtue ethics toward beatitude. Brilliant….happiness is the word!

    79. Werahiko March 25, 2014 at 10:33 pm

      Well I reckon it was a bless sing. And not in disguise.

       

    80. Benedicta March 25, 2014 at 10:35 pm

      Teresina

      Not that you need any teaching you know so much, so thoroughly catechised and so on. But it might give you some insight as to why someone like myself would never want to be infected with certain views on moral theory ever again. You can keep them if you like but it won't make you happy until you are so far past it it won't bite you anymore. For the young…its another story they need real help…Pinckaers explains what needs to be.

    81. Benedicta March 25, 2014 at 10:36 pm

      Werahiko

      Loved that 'glum true God'.

      GK Chesterton has a book on heretics and I think puritanism comes into his radar on that subject.

    82. Teresina March 25, 2014 at 10:38 pm

      Benedicta, the Jesuits doing ballet is not the same thing:

      Louis le Grand, a Jesuit-run school for boys where the Jesuits produced ballets as part of teaching rhetoric. Between 1638 and 1761, the school created and performed 102 ballets as well as tragedies, comedies and other theatre forms. Performing in the ballets gave the students strong, eloquent bodies and trained them to dance well at the court of Louis XIV—a paramount social requirement for nobles in those days. The dance technique wasn’t the kind of ballet recognized today that features tutus and pointe shoes. Known now as baroque dance, its demanding technique was much the same on the stage and in the ballroom.

    83. Rubyshine March 25, 2014 at 10:40 pm

      I would absolutely do what that priest did. I genuinely see nothing inappropriate or embarrassing in his actions.

      My students were desperate for me to do this with them, and what stopped me was that I was not going to be responsible for filming minors and putting them on the internet. Plus I felt I had too little control over the technology. The kids wanted to just use their phones and flick it straight onto the net, which is not the same as me being in control over the filmed material and checking it for appropriateness.

      Someone being silly in some contexts does not make me lose respect for them or their message. I can easily separate out someone having fun and being silly, and when they are speaking seriously with an important message.

      Every single time I hear someone speak, I take their message on merit. I don't immediately discount someone's message because I've disagreed with them 100 times before or because yesterday we had a joke together. Likewise, I don't immediately absorb someone's message as correct and true because of their position or title or their dignified behaviour.

      I've heard priests say things that make me screw up my nose in disdain because it jars with my own values, even though I absolutely respect priests.

    84. Teresina March 25, 2014 at 10:40 pm

      Bendicta, what you forget is that the Church still teaches that.   I think you would do well to look up purity, chastity and you might be a bit surprised. 

    85. Teresina March 25, 2014 at 10:43 pm

      Actually, Benedicta, Puritanism in its original meaning it signified those who strove for a worship purified from all taint of Catholicism . . . so that would appear to refer to yourself.

    86. Benedicta March 25, 2014 at 10:43 pm

      No, I don't see anything like that in public, yet I am sure they have shared a joke, pulled a face, but nothing that might lead to derision and something holy being lowered in public.

      St Francis threw his clothes off in public.

      I can only imagine what scandal St Joseph of Cupertino caused.

      Many of the Saints, like Padre Pio, were accused of scandal.

      Sr Cristina didn't lead you to derision….you did that to yourself.

    87. Teresina March 25, 2014 at 10:44 pm

      Benedicta, it might give me the idea that someone like yourself does not really want to be truly converted from what they once embraced.

    88. Teresina March 25, 2014 at 10:47 pm

      Benedicta, when a nun dressed in a habit performs like that in public she derides her calling – I am sorry that you haven't been properly catechised.  If you were you would be singing a different tune because at the moment you are just looking at it purely from a worldly perspective.

    89. Benedicta March 25, 2014 at 10:50 pm

      ~~so that would appear to refer to yourself

      Yes, Teresina…its that sort of comment which makes you so loveable. ..and Catholicism so attractive.

       

    90. Benedicta March 25, 2014 at 10:52 pm

      it might give me the idea that someone like yourself does not really want to be truly converted from what they once embraced.

      ??? You know????? O my God……

      I better go…

    91. Teresina March 25, 2014 at 10:53 pm

      Read your own comments, Benedicta, and see what makes you so thoroughly loveable and Catholic!

    92. Teresina March 25, 2014 at 10:55 pm

      Yes, you'd better go because perhaps grains of truth is just tooooooo much for you!

    93. Teresina March 25, 2014 at 11:04 pm

      Yes, Teresina…its that sort of comment which makes you so loveable. ..and Catholicism so attractive. Oh, faint, shock, horror, where are the smelling salts?  Look at that uncharitable comment.  I honestly think these sorts of comments should be stopped.  I just might have to retire, never to blog again on BF … although I just might jump out to defend the Church  now and then from raging neo-cons, but mind you not while I'm giving up BF for Lent because I'm so overcome with all the uncharitableness … (sound familiar?)  ho hum!  Well, I had just better take my too overly well catechised proud self off for the night in case I am offended even more by some of those, well, so totally charitable (never offend anyone with their comments) Catholic souls on BF.  

    94. Teresina March 25, 2014 at 11:47 pm

      How priests used to preach in the days of Faith (and some still do if you can find them that is):

      http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=DK677WNX

    95. Teresina March 26, 2014 at 9:58 am

      On thinking things over, I realise just how wrong I’ve been and how right Benedicta, John Whyte and Banter are.  Really, how wrong I was not to realise what a great role model Sr Cristina is for all nuns.  I’m sure that, even now, there are nuns all over the world pressing their mother superiors to let them enter such competitions as The Voice.  And why not?

      When you think about it, she has opened up a whole new world to nuns so why stop at Italy’s the Voice?  What about something entirely for nuns?  What about something in this country for our own nuns?  What about NZ’s version of Nuns Have got Talent?  That’s right.  I’m sure there are nuns all over NZ with various talents, from ventriloquism to magic acts – sawing the mother superior in half, for example; song and dance acts.  You name it, the world is their oyster.  Being Frankers, can’t you just see nuns in habits all over NZ queuing up for an audition with Tame Cofe?  Can you imagine Rachel Hunter’s face as she leaps up and down with excitement?

      It might even have a spin-off effect.  Those nuns who don’t wear habits might just don them in order to get a shoe in.  They might get into the habit of the habit.  Being Frank could have a first here.  Well done you nice people!

      But wait, there’s more … we’ve got some beautiful nuns in habits – why stop at talent shows?  What about Miss Nun World or Miss Nun International?  Instead of a ball gown session the nuns could parade in their habits.  “Wonderful!” I hear Benedicta, John Whyte and Banter cry, “why didn’t we think of this before?  The nuns would slay them”.  They could even go head to head with the ordinary woman in the street.  Now there’s a first.

      Not to be outdone, and to keep up Rubyshine’s theme, BF could suggest to the bishops a change for seminarians – no seminarian to be ordained until he can do the Harlem shuffle.  Imagine that?  That may even lead to an increase in vocations.  I am sure all priests will be delighted with BF and even support them in their crusade for habited nuns who want to take to the stage.

      So there we are Being Frankers, Benedicta, John Whyte and Banter, you’ve sold me on the idea that nuns in habits can do anything and I really think, after all, it is such a nice idea.  Good on all of you, I’m with you all the way!

    96. Teresina March 26, 2014 at 11:10 am

      p.s. Maybe Pope Francis could agree to be a judge on Italy's The Voice – that way Sr Cristina will romp in.  Maybe Benedicta could tweet him and ask.  She may even get a phone call from him.  Wouldn't that be nice?  Mmm, but then again perhaps he wouldn't agree to it.  After all, didn't he say, "Who am I to judge?"  

    97. Vatican2Survivor March 26, 2014 at 11:30 am

      To parade the pseudo fact that a nun can be a pop star as a reality, is to fail to understand the term' monastic.' if there is one word which best captures the willed acts of the is nun,its something other than' monastic'–i dont know her masked intentions–or what does not or cannot fully enter articulate experience about her–but her obvious recourse to another master –the world of pop music– indicates something of a misunderstanding at least of her calling. Monastic means one minded in Latin–her love of the world suggests not a monastic but a dual or divided mind–she doesnt fall easily then, in to the category of monastic in the true sense of St Benedicts position as contained in his Monastic rule.

      How can we move out of the pretend world of such confusions? St John of the Cross, Dr of the Church, and spiritual genius–better than Hawkings and F gives a blueprint for this escape. His writings probe into the matter of what spiritual processes can assist, and in what ways and what can be said to be an understanding of authentic union with Christ–the only matter worthy of our thought really. He evokes ways or purification and renunciation of the senses, in a road map for one's soul inorder to lift us duly to the magnificence of Christ lifting us up in turn, to regions beyond our one erg orbit around self concerns,self image giving insights from which we can, at last, look down on the mere pinprick of the tiny earth, realm ofour honours, desires and popstar statuses, and  its innumerable variations we are subject to, and watch these disappear into nothingness, and now purged of these we can enter into exstatic mystical marriage with God. To modify and make his writings fit our less ascended realms talking about the pop star nun who gives the horned devils salute and so lives in a very different realm from St John– to fit our current need– we can simply say of this precious soul, her approach needs the 'dark night of the soul' by which earthly impediments to union with Christ can be lovingly removed by Christ, and she, the soul,is prepared to receive greater infusions of wisdom into her soul than that which the mentality of pop culture, or any other culture save Catholicism, provides.

       In taking up St John of the Cross,Dont worry how today anyone who refuses to abolish Catholic Sacred wisdom from the past, and who act as if anyone with an excellent comprehension of moral and theological issues must be seen as foolish. And dont worry about those who give remarks that seemingly cut the friends of Christ down to simplistic stick figures and rather than be awakened by your comments to a fuller perception of the treasures of Catholicism, prefer to huddle in the prison cell of Vatican Two's one dimensionality, but pray that this mystical genius of this Doctor of the Church will guide them..

    98. John Whyte March 26, 2014 at 12:27 pm

      V2S,

      A few very glaring points

      1) A monastic does not have to shut themselves away from everything in the world.  Some orders do, and some like the Daughters of Charity of St Vincent de Paul don't.  You have pictures of nun playing lawn bowls, croquet, etc. This one has chosed to enter a singing competition.  They aren't vows of poverty, chastity, and no television appeiances.  

      2) Yes there is easily a question of prudence and wisdom, but this is a question for the nun and her mother superior (who seems to be in complete agreement with her).  Who are we on the other side of the world, speaking another language to cast any sort of judgement.  I'll wager nobody in this hemisphere knew of the sister, the mother superior, or the order before seeing it on youtube.  

      3) You are issuing a spiritual judgement and then advice on a woman you've never met based off a five minute clip of Italian television.  This is even more bizzare than some people who continually condemn the pope based off news reports and slanted glasses.  At least we are meant to care about the pope.  This is a nun with a voice.  

      4) Your comments re St John of the Cross in no way make any form of arguement about this nun and her actions.  They could equally be applied to St Hildegard not making a speaking (and preaching) tour in the 1100s (or writing her non theological writings), to St Teresa not going to see the Pope in france, Or for Mother Teresa for not being a celebrity.  Make any of the before mentioned arguements if you wish, but but please make them as arguements not a sprawling mix of 'fact' and 'unrelated statement'.

    99. grocersgirl March 26, 2014 at 12:34 pm

      As a new visitor to Being Frank I acknowledge the (obvious) habitués who feel sufficient ownership of the site to express a welcome to a new voice.

      Having recently retired, I now have time to explore the realms of cyberspace and am discovering all sorts of Catholic websites from Whispers in the Loggia to Rorate Coeli and all varieties of belief in between.  However, on reading the comments on this posting I come to the conclusion that any thoughtful and worthwhile comments are overwhelmed by the frequent outbursts of bile, sarcasm and spite.  Robust debate I can take and would enjoy participating in.  But not sheer nastiness, such as “Werahiko, finally you have said something positive even though for you it is mere jest.  Perhaps you should go back to swinging in the trees with your friends?”or “Rubyshine, if you listen to Banter you may never realise your potential as a Catholic.  He is stuck in a rut in the Bastille and doesn't want to be liberated – happy in mediocrity … “

      I am sure there are other sites to spend my time fruitfully, but I would say in leaving – knowing the world-wide reach of the internet, I wish some of the contributors here would give thought to the sort of publicity they are giving to New Zealand Catholicism on a site that declares itself as being for ”New Zealand Catholics being frank about their Roman Catholic faith.”  Being frank does not need to exclude generosity, tolerance, kindness and charity.

    100. John Whyte March 26, 2014 at 12:39 pm

      Grocersgirl,

      Let me encourage you off the beaten track, try reading http://www.patheos.com/blogs/barefootandpregnant/ http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/ http://www.patheos.com/blogs/thecrescat/ http://www.patheos.com/blogs/simchafisher/ are really my favourite blogs.  

      I will be honest there are commentators here I just don't read for the reasons you've listed above.  Which is a shame as M&M and Boanerges often post on real issues that touch on kiwi things, unlike other blog sites.

    101. Teresina March 26, 2014 at 1:08 pm

      grocersgirl, you have already made it plain where you stand with the clip and the comment "You have problems with cardinals too Teresina?"    I suspect that you are not even genuine – probably another alias of John Whyte who, as I recall, used several in the past.  This blog is quite obviously one group of people who gang up on one person and then complain.  Being Frank used to be conservative, but it's not any longer going by the comments from several of the commentators here.  

      I think when Werahiko posts such comments as "These so-called religious should remember their vows of poverty, chastiy, obedience and dourness, return to the convent, get down on their knees and pray for forgiveness to the Glum True God".  Then he deserves the silly response he got back.  Apart from the fact it is a mockery of God but did we see Boanerges or anyone call him out for that?  No.  Everyone can say what they like as long as it's not an assertion of traditional Catholicism.

       

    102. Teresina March 26, 2014 at 1:22 pm

      Vatican2Surviror, I don't know what post John Whyte is referring to.  I found your post excellent.  It was scholastically controlled and developed and a great introduction to St 
      John of the Cross, who anyone with a little Catholic sensitivity would be inspired to look at in more in depth, and I am sure that was the intention of your post.  Still if you stay with this blog you will find how vacuous and ignorant of their Catholic Faith many posting here are.  A lot of them could have a full blooded 15 round fight with no one else in the room, as they fight against something that hasn't actually been said, responding  to invisible writing that no one has penned.  For example, you refer to Sr Caterina as a precious soul, hardly condemning her, and recommending her to the loving works of Christ as accessed through the window of the writings of St John of the Cross but still John Whyte finds that offensive.

    103. Teresina March 26, 2014 at 1:33 pm

      Deo gratias for Cardinal Burke.  Thank God we have someone who is standing up for the Church's teaching on Marriage:

      "Cardinal Raymond Burke has voiced a clear disagreement with Cardinal Walter Kasper’s proposal for a new approach to allow Communion for Catholics who are divorced and remarried.

      Appearing on the EWTN TV broadcast of “The World Over,” Cardinal Burke told host Raymond Arroyo that Cardinal Kasper’s proposal, introduced at a February consistory of the world’s cardinals, would seem to conflict with established Catholic doctrine and canon law.

      “In my estimation as a canonist I do not think it is possible,” said Cardinal Burke, who is the prefect of the Apostolic Signatura, the Church’s top canonical tribunal. He added: “I trust in coming days… the error of his approach will become ever clearer."

      Cardinal Burke pointed out that Cardinal Kasper’s address was delivered to the cardinals during a meeting at which discussions were originally intended to be confidential. But since the thrust of the German cardinal’s proposal had become widely known, he said, he felt obligated to report that Cardinal Kasper’s ideas had met with some resistance among the cardinals."

      His interview on EWTN is excellent:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llSCDBNPvK4

    104. Teresina March 26, 2014 at 2:04 pm

      As I said above did we see anyone call out Werahiko for making a mockery of the expression "the one true God"?  No, in fact we have John Whyte and Benedicta further repeating the mockery:

      John Whyte:  You make me giggle   Particularly the 'glum true God'.

      Benedicta March 25, 2014 at 10:36 pm

      Werahiko

      Loved that 'glum true God'."

       

      John Whyte and Benedicta, shame on both of you and remember that God will not be mocked!  The three of you will no doubt end up on the glum side for making such a comment.   

    105. Boanerges March 26, 2014 at 2:27 pm

      Teresina I cannot keep up with the speed of your postings, so apologies if this is a little late, now that I am on my lunch break:

      "Being Frank used to be conservative, but it's not any longer going by the comments from several of the commentators here"

      I personally appreciate the fact that there is a wide scope of opinion here and am glad that it is not solely a conservative enclave. I like that Being Frank gets a wide variety of respondents and opinions. What I don't like is seeing people belittled or criticised for having those opinions (and that includes people who do the same to your comments Teresina, and I apologise if you think I've been one of them). Grocersgirl makes a good point by asking what witness this thread is to NZ Catholicism?

      Time to lock this thread?

      M+M has put up a good topic today, how about we offer an opinion on that instead of continuing this debate, which seems to be descending into nothing but criticism of one another?

       

    106. Werahiko March 26, 2014 at 2:43 pm

      Teresina your confidence in your ability to discern the mind of God and your knowledge of his future judgements continues to amaze. You should consider possibly what concept of God is the more easily mocked: a God who welcomes innocent enjoyment of life and his gifts and creation, or a God seeking his creatures, especially those closest to Him, to live lives of despondency, marked by maudlin ancient hymns in forgotten tongues and a refusal to find joy in anything He has made. 

    107. Teresina March 26, 2014 at 2:45 pm

      Well, Boanerges, it had blog had already descended into criticism of others when some started accusing those who are promoting Catholic teaching as being puritanical and then God is referred to as the "one glum God".  Why didn't you step in then?  I mean it seems to me – and others I know who read this blog have said they thought yours was a complete attack on me and unwarranted.  I agree with what they said.  Unfortunately bias is being displayed here because at least two or three people are allowed to make any comment they like of others but anyone with a conservative view is clamped down upon and singled out as being nasty.  Why is that?

    108. Teresina March 26, 2014 at 2:46 pm

      Werahiko, if you're happy with calling God "the one glum God" then go ahead that's your choice, insult God and be it on your own head.

    109. Boanerges March 26, 2014 at 2:50 pm

      Teresina I'm not commenting any further, I've offered an apology if you felt I was out of line. 

      Final comment: the Sunday scrum is an open forum, which I contribute to and kick start. I don't see myself as a moderator of it like I might do on one of my Thursday posts. 

    110. John Whyte March 26, 2014 at 2:51 pm

      Boanerges,

      You have the keys to open or shut in this case ;)  

      I still think you should enforce a comment policy and don't be afraid to be a tin pot dictator about it.  It's your 'house' so make the rules.  

    111. Teresina March 26, 2014 at 2:52 pm

      Another thing that springs to mind, Boanerges, is that there has been quite a lot of criticism of the bishops, etc, on this blog and by BF commentators as well, so why are you now worrying what sort of witness BF is to other Catholics?  It's a bit like the pot calling the kettle black.

    112. Benedicta March 26, 2014 at 2:53 pm

      GK Chesterton – 'Heretics'

      "The usual verdict of educated people on the Salvation Army is expressed in some such words as these: 'I have no doubt they do a great deal of good, but they do it in a vulgar and profane style; their aims are excellent, but their methods are wrong.' To me, unfortunately, the precise reverse of this appears to be the truth. I do not know whether the aims of the Salvation Army are excellent, but I am quite sure their methods are admirable. Their methods are the methods of all intense and hearty religions; they are popular like all religion, …public and sensational like all religion. They are not reverent any more than Roman Catholics are reverent, for reverence in the sad and delicate meaning of the term reverence is a thing only possible to infidels. …in men who believe you will not find it – you will find only laughter and war…And the Salvation Army, though their voice has broken out in a mean environment and an ugly shape, are really the old voice of glad and angry faith, hot as the riots of Dionysys, wild as the gargoyles of Catholicism, not to be mistaken for a philosophy. …..there never has been, and never can be, any Christianity that is not corybantic (wild/frenzied)….there can be no doubt about the genuineness of their brass bands, for a brass band is purely spiritual, and seeks only to quicken the internal life. The object of philanthropy is to do good; the object of religion is to be good, if only for a moment amid a crash of brass."

      Sr Cristina is an Ursurline – St Angela Merici. Not a Carmelite. Her habit is a symbol of ultimate reality beyond who she is as a person, but without negating her. It was her habit they responded to….and wonderfully….good for a moment amid a crash of brass. She came 'down the mountain' and met them on their own turf and they welcomed her, not only because she could sing, but especially because she brought them a real symbol of something they perhaps didn't have.

      I don't find any of this profane. I think its Christianity….in this post-modern age it won't be the texts and catechisms which, in the first instance change hearts and minds, but living symbols – something real and whole.

      Perhaps I'm wrong. I just take this one time thing as it is…we don't have to make a meal out of it.

       

    113. Boanerges March 26, 2014 at 2:53 pm

      JW I have no ownership or administrative control, I am simply a contributor. Shutting it down is above my pay grade! 

       

      Definitely ly my final comment in this thread! 

    114. John Whyte March 26, 2014 at 2:57 pm

      Come now Boanerges, enlighten us then, who is this paygrade?  is this some secret cabal of Opus Dei and albino monks?  Where does this ultimate power reside?  

      No seriously, if you aren't an administrator, who is?

    115. Teresina March 26, 2014 at 2:58 pm

      Yes, John, you would do well to guard yourself by not commenting on what people wear, and referring the elderly in a disparaging manner.  Your comments have helped inflame this blog and then you cry wolf. 

    116. Teresina March 26, 2014 at 3:00 pm

      Boarneges, I didn't think you belitted me personally but I felt you were unjustified in singling me out as the one descending to belittling people, as if you go back on some of the blogs you can see that often it has been started by others.  I admit I am a bit too hasty in my response sometimes.

    117. bamac March 26, 2014 at 3:06 pm

      http://catholiccollarandtie.blogspot.ie/2014/03/catholic-blogs-my-thoughts.html

      After reading a number of comments on this post I thought that this post on " collar and tie "might be of interest

      Thank you firstly Vatican 2survivor , thank you you too all commenters for though I may not agree altogether with all your cooments , you have given me food for thought and for prayers of thanks giving fot the faith that God has given me ,

      shalom,

      Mrs Mac

    118. Teresina March 26, 2014 at 3:08 pm

      Good, Benedicta, I am in complete agreement with you over Sr Cristina.  She has set the standard. It is high time we had a nuns have got Talent as I state above.  I think it's time we Catholics let our hair down – throw out all the pomp and ceremony.  Get rid of the lot. I am sure the Tyburn Nuns will be the first to throw their veils into the ring. I think you've all got the right idea.  Throw caution to the wind.  I was wrong after all. 

    119. Teresina March 26, 2014 at 3:11 pm

      Mrs Mac, thank you for that link I think it serves as a good reminder to all posting here, me included.  

    120. Teresina March 26, 2014 at 3:17 pm

      "We do not want, as the newspapers say, a church that will move with the world. We want a church that will move the world."  -G.K. Chesterton

    121. Benedicta March 26, 2014 at 4:22 pm

      Just an analysis of how we got here. Some might reflect on it I am.

      Recommendation – the use of the word You is the problem. Its applied in order to direct and challenge.

      Comments from Teresina directed to others.

      1.I am dismayed at Catholics who aren't concerned about it.
      2."Really?"  What world do you inhabit, Boanerges?
      3.Rubyshine, this is a nun.  Seriously, as a Catholic you're ok with this? This is the real problem with the laity in the Church these days.  Most have lost the plot.
      4. Perhaps you should go back to swinging in the trees with your friends?
      5.I think you need to have a look at the definition of sacrilegous.
      that's why I would expect more from Pope Francis than to be condoning this sort of thing.
      6.I think that it's high time many in the Church acting in this irresponsible manner took a long hard look at themselves.
      7.Some time ago on this blog John Whyte made the comment that the Pius X people dress funny.  So I've put this video up especially for him to show him what a nonsense he spoke. 
      8. Is the Church becoming what it says on the tin "new order"?  It's certainly  not the Church I was brought up in.  Sadly things are worsening under Pope Francis.
      9.We have reached a pretty sorry day when someone like yourself, responsible for students,
      10. I would substitute "Church of Nice" for "Novus Ordo Sect".
      11. Boanerges, I couldn't help my response to you because I have up until now considered you on the conservative side
      12. I certainly think Pope Francis is being embraced by the world because he is of the world
      13. John Whyte, I support the idea for such a policy and that includes denigrating the elderly and the SSPX which you are guilty of.
      14. Benedicta, hey, funny  how you all jump on together, isn't it?  No surprise from your comments.   I fully expect the Church of NIce to support what this nun in habit is doing.  Due to lack of catechesis over the past 50 years, …In like vein,  you are all happy in your reverie and don't like being shocked out of it.  I think that about sums it up. 
      15. I expect this sort of thing from bloggers on the Fishwrap but not on Being Frank.
      16. John Whyte, all the things that you post leads me to believe that you have never truly converted.  Sorry, but that's how you come across.
      17. Rubyshine, if you listen to Banter you may never realise your potential as a Catholic.  He is stuck in a rut in the Bastille and doesn't want to be liberated – happy in mediocrity …
      18. Banter, you just don't get it … anyway go and read for yourself what Our Lord said to the woman at the well
      19. What I am is expressing is the Catholic view that I was taught.  Not my own personal dreamed up view.  I ask: why do the majority here not share that view?  Answer: perhaps none of them have been taught
      20. No, Benedicta, …I think you should study up about the religious  life – what the Church teaches about it – that way you  may see why others – taught differently from you – are appalled by it.
      21.Actually, Benedicta, Puritanism in its original meaning it signified those who strove for a worship purified from all taint of Catholicism . . . so that would appear to refer to yourself.
      22. Benedicta, it might give me the idea that someone like yourself does not really want to be truly converted from what they once embraced.
      23. Read your own comments, Benedicta, and see what makes you so thoroughly loveable and Catholic!
      24. Yes, you'd better go because perhaps grains of truth is just tooooooo much for you!
      25. Oh, faint, shock, horror, where are the smelling salts?  Look at that uncharitable comment.  I honestly think these sorts of comments should be stopped.

      26. So there we are Being Frankers, Benedicta, John Whyte and Banter, you’ve sold me on the idea that nuns in habits can do anything and I really think, after all, it is such a nice idea.  Good on all of you, I’m with you all the way!
      27.. p.s. Maybe Pope Francis could agree to be a judge on Italy's The Voice – that way Sr Cristina will romp in.  Maybe Benedicta could tweet him and ask.  She may even get a phone call from him.  Wouldn't that be nice?  Mmm, but then again perhaps he wouldn't agree to it.  After all, didn't he say, "Who am I to judge?" 
      28. grocersgirl, you have already made it plain where you stand with the clip and the comment "You have problems with cardinals too Teresina?"    I suspect that you are not even genuine – probably another alias of John Whyte
      29.This blog is quite obviously one group of people who gang up on one person and then complain…Then he deserves the silly response he got back. 
      30.John Whyte and Benedicta, shame on both of you and remember that God will not be mocked!  The three of you will no doubt end up on the glum side for making such a comment.  
      31. Well, Boanerges, it had blog had already descended into criticism of others when some started accusing those who are promoting Catholic teaching as being puritanical and then God is referred to as the "one glum God".  Why didn't you step in then?  I mean it seems to me – and others I know who read this blog have said they thought yours was a complete attack on me and unwarranted.
      32. Werahiko, if you're happy with calling God "the one glum God" then go ahead that's your choice, insult God and be it on your own head.
      33. (Defensive) Another thing that springs to mind, Boanerges, is that there has been quite a lot of criticism of the bishops, etc, on this blog and by BF commentators as well, so why are you now worrying what sort of witness BF is to other Catholics?  It's a bit like the pot calling the kettle black.
      34. Yes, John, you would do well to guard yourself by not commenting on what people wear, and referring the elderly in a disparaging manner.  Your comments have helped inflame this blog and then you cry wolf.

      Directed ‘Unfairly ? to Teresina’
      1. "No doubt all on drugs"… Really?
      2. You have problems with cardinals too Teresina?
      3. Teresina, my small exploration of this site indicates that you seem to be a frequent commenter, but I find it disturbing that you choose to use a website such as novusordowatch to support your views.
      4. (Defensive) I am tired of being accused of not being a "real" catholic whenever I express a more liberal view eg.
      5. (Defensive) I'm also tired of the propaganda inherent in phrases like "church of nice" and "novus ordo sect"
      6. Teresina, looking back through this thread, I made the comment "really?" in reply to your assertation that they were all on drugs. I don't see that as personal against you,
      7. Teresina's take on this isn't Catholic and it certainly isn't GK Chesterton.
      8. (Defensive)To take abuse that you are not properly catachised is akin to being an undergraduate student being told by a PHd graduate you are not properly educated.
      9. Sr Cristina didn't lead you to derision….you did that to yourself.
      10. Yes, Teresina…its that sort of comment which makes you so loveable. ..and Catholicism so attractive
      11. (Defensive) Robust debate I can take and would enjoy participating in.  But not sheer nastiness, such as
      12. Teresina your confidence in your ability to discern the mind of God and your knowledge of his future judgements continues to amaze.
      13. (Defensive) Teresina I'm not commenting any further, I've offered an apology if you felt I was out of line.

      Analysis -

      Comments to Teresina from various – (13) about 10% of critical comments to Teresina of which half were defending themselves from direct personal criticism from Teresina. So 5/13 on the offensive? Notably 10 mentions of the word You or personally directed by name.

      Comments from Teresina to various - (34) about 28% personally critical comments from Teresina to others. Including three slugs at the Pope. 77 personal directions by You (or collective) or name or group name.
       

       

    122. Teresina March 26, 2014 at 4:38 pm

      Benedicta, I think you forgot your own insulting comments and I think my comments are tame by comparison to yours.  The first and most serious insult was to God of course – but you haven't bothered to address that and I doubt that you will.  The rest to sum up those who promote Catholic teaching are: glum, puritanical, thoroughly catechised, resident sedevacantists, (by implication not) lovable and detract from Catholicism.  Here they are in full and bearing in mind you have only made a few comments on this post it didn't take you long to get into your usual swing:

      Benedicta: Werahiko Loved that 'glum true God'. GK Chesterton has a book on heretics and I think puritanism comes into his radar on that subject.

      Benedicta: Not that you need any teaching you know so much, so thoroughly catechised and so on …  You can keep them if you like but it won't make you happy until you are so far past it it won't bite you anymore.

      Benedicta: Our resident sede-vacantists are swinging on that tree of error but they suppose it isn't.

      Benedicta: Sr Cristina didn't lead you to derision….you did that to yourself.

      Benedicta: Yes, Teresina…its that sort of comment which makes you so loveable. ..and Catholicism so attractive.

      And bearing in mind that there are three of you that work in tandem and gang up on one person.  

    123. Werahiko March 26, 2014 at 4:41 pm

      I think Teresina, deliberately or not, often misses the point of responses, meaning the debate does not develop. For example I satirically referred to belief in 'the Glum True God'. Teresina has responded as if this is a name I am giving to God, whereas it is of course a description of a belief in something I do not consider to be God, but rather a false God made up by people. 

    124. Teresina March 26, 2014 at 4:43 pm

      Werahiko, of course you are just joking but no one else is allowed to respond to you in kind are they?  If they do they are insulting.  Well I am sure that there are many like me who do not see insulting God as funny.

    125. Teresina March 26, 2014 at 4:45 pm

      Anyway, Werahiko, the debate is ended because I have agreed that it is fine for a nun like Sr Cristina to behave in the manner that she does.  In fact I think all habited nuns should behave in that manner.  Therefore, I am no longer glum or puritanical.  I am like the rest of you.  Like you, I am happy to see a nun making a fool of herself and her habit.  

    126. Teresina March 26, 2014 at 4:52 pm

      To Benedicta, John Whyte and Werahiko, in case you missed it here is my suggestions, in keeping with your views on habited nuns.  I've given your views the thumbs up and expanded on them a little:

      On thinking things over, I realise just how wrong I’ve been and how right Benedicta, John Whyte and Banter are.  Really, how wrong I was not to realise what a great role model Sr Cristina is for all nuns.  I’m sure that, even now, there are nuns all over the world pressing their mother superiors to let them enter such competitions as The Voice.  And why not?

      When you think about it, she has opened up a whole new world to nuns so why stop at Italy’s the Voice?  What about something entirely for nuns?  What about something in this country for our own nuns?  What about NZ’s version of Nuns Have got Talent?  That’s right.  I’m sure there are nuns all over NZ with various talents, from ventriloquism to magic acts – sawing the mother superior in half, for example; song and dance acts.  You name it, the world is their oyster.  Being Frankers, can’t you just see nuns in habits all over NZ queuing up for an audition with Tame Cofe?  Can you imagine Rachel Hunter’s face as she leaps up and down with excitement?

      It might even have a spin-off effect.  Those nuns who don’t wear habits might just don them in order to get a shoe in.  They might get into the habit of the habit.  Being Frank could have a first here.  Well done you nice people!

      But wait, there’s more … we’ve got some beautiful nuns in habits – why stop at talent shows?  What aboutMiss Nun World or Miss Nun International?  Instead of a ball gown session the nuns could parade in their habits.  “Wonderful!” I hear Benedicta, John Whyte and Banter cry, “why didn’t we think of this before?  The nuns would slay them”.  They could even go head to head with the ordinary woman in the street.  Now there’s a first.

      Not to be outdone, and to keep up Rubyshine’s theme, BF could suggest to the bishops a change for seminarians – no seminarian to be ordained until he can do the Harlem shuffle.  Imagine that?  That may even lead to an increase in vocations.  I am sure all priests will be delighted with BF and even support them in their crusade for habited nuns who want to take to the stage.

      So there we are Being Frankers, Benedicta, John Whyte and Banter, you’ve sold me on the idea that nuns in habits can do anything and I really think, after all, it is such a nice idea.  Good on all of you, I’m with you all the way!

    127. bamac March 26, 2014 at 5:01 pm

      This blogsite is becoming too personal on all sides even without the ideas of someone  counting cut and thrust remarks …. .. I think that it is time for this old girl to cut and move on ….. as you said John , there are other Catholic sites,

      Mrs Mac

    128. Teresina March 26, 2014 at 5:28 pm

      Another great comment from Cardinal Burke:

      "“Adults, young people and children must be educated about the central moral questions of the day,” said Cardinal Raymond Burke, the ecclesiastical advisor to The Cardinal Newman Society’s Center for the Advancement of Catholic Higher Education, which works with Catholic universities to formulate and promote policies that strengthen Catholic identity.

      “Education regarding the natural law and its application to current issues is fundamental,” Cardinal Burke continued in an interview originally published in Polonia Christiana magazine and recently republished in English on LifeSiteNews.com. Two of the places where this education should occur are “Catholic schools and universities.”

      “The totally secular agenda, if it is to succeed, must win children and youth to its way of thinking. Education is the ultimate key to its victory in society,” Cardinal Burke stated, according to LifeSite. In order to combat this secularization, parents and teachers must “educate in accord with what is true, good and beautiful.”

      - See more at: http://www.cardinalnewmansociety.org/CatholicEducationDaily/DetailsPage/tabid/102/ArticleID/3121/Cardinal-Burke-Tells-Parents-to-be-%E2%80%98Especially-Vigilant-%E2%80%99-Laments-Infidelity-of-Catholic-Colleges.aspx#sthash.Lwhq2z7f.dpuf

    129. Teresina March 26, 2014 at 5:31 pm

      And Cardinal Burke has had this to say re Obama.  Cardinal Burke is a true champion of the Faith and it seems to me he is battling away single-handedly in many quarters.

      "U.S. Cardinal Raymond Burke, overseer of the Vatican’s highest court, recently accused President Barack Obama of impeding Christians’ religious liberties, charging that he “promotes anti-life and anti-family policies.”

      Burke, who serves as the prefect of the Supreme Tribunal of the Apostolic Signatura, said during an interview with Polonia Christiana Magazine that Obama’s policies have been increasingly unfriendly toward Christians.

      “It is true that the policies of the president of the United States have become progressively more hostile toward Christian civilization,” Burke said. “He appears to be a totally secularized man who aggressively promotes anti-life and anti-family policies.”

      http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/03/24/prominent-u-s-catholic-cardinal-blasts-obama-as-a-totally-secularized-man-who-is-hostile-toward-christian-civilization/

    130. Benedicta March 26, 2014 at 5:46 pm

      Mrs Mac

      I beg to disagree.

      Its totally unbalanced. Yes there are personal challenges and directives on all sides but there is an preponderance of them coming from Teresina.

      Its just not fair cop really.

      Molehills become mountains. This was about a singing nun….what's to get het up about? Its not a point of doctrine we rise and fall on.

      Werahiko did not insult God. He was satirically pointing out an erroneous understanding of God….one I am sure God would not want. GK Chesterton puts 'glum' and also by the way 'puritans' in the heretic basket.

      It all seems rather hysterical and controlling from where I'm sitting.

      Grocersgirl is right. There has to be some semblance of faithful and Catholic – dishing the Pope, hauling stuff of sede-vacantists sites is not faithful and Catholic. Liking or not liking singing nuns is not a matter of fidelity to Catholicism.

      Its all crazy and obsessive.

      Bishop Egan in Britain has said bloggers need to smarten up. Are we being charitable? That is the question. Perhaps I'm not, but there has to be a complete change of tone, less provocation of individuals. Stay with the ideas and lay off judgments and leave the Pope alone?

    131. Benedicta March 26, 2014 at 5:50 pm

      Why don't you start your own blog Teresina…and those who are interested in will follow you there.

      Being Frank is just about all we have yet everyone who seems to be Catholic gets knocked about unless they are as Catholic as they should be according to certain criteria.

    132. beyblade March 26, 2014 at 5:51 pm

      skimmed through the comments – got the gist. Chin Up Rubyshine – hey at least Sr Cristina wasn't twerking. Now that is really low.

    133. Benedicta March 26, 2014 at 6:55 pm

      John Whyte

      I know you are reading Ralph Martin's book…'How many will be saved'. (I like it very much). Also I can recommend his spiritual treatise 'Fulfillment of all Desire'.

      I want to mention an article I have just started to read. It should follow on from Ralph Martin's book (though written prior). It is by Matthew Levering a Biblical Thomist.

      Called…'Biblical Thomism and the Doctrine of Providence' in American Catholic Philosophical Quarterly Vol. 83 (3), (Summer, 2009). pages 337-362

      Here is a sample p 340 "In what follows, I hope to offer a Thomisitic theology of providence and predestination that takes its bearings from the requirements of Scripture and the recent Magisterium, and that identifies St Catherine of Siena as a model for a contemporary Thomisitic perspective on the issue of God's eternal choosing of humans for everlasting beatitude".

      Also if you check the notes at the back of Ralph Martin's book there is a reference there to St Thomas re 'no salvation outside the Church'. It says that in St Thomas own understanding that equates to the Catechism we have today…that is one knows that the Church is the Church of Christ etc and leaves it then that person relinquishes salvation. So it is about Catholics who abandon the Church – for them there is no salvation outside the Church. It isn't the Feeney solution that the Church was a sealed bulwark outside of which there was no salvation per se.

      Interesting.

      If the article I mentioned interest you I am sure that any theological department could access it for you or Good Shepherd College.

      Buona Sera

    134. Teresina March 26, 2014 at 7:45 pm

      Cardinal Burke is warning against simplifying annulments and "false mercy": 

      "Burke said "it must be clear" that the annulment process "is not a mere matter of procedure but that the process is essentially connected with the doctrinal truth" of the church.

      Continuing, the cardinal quoted the pertinent line in the church's Code of Canon Law, which reads: "Marriage … can be dissolved by no human power and by no cause, except death."

      "Sometimes, one hears the slogan that the [annulment] process has become encrusted with burdensome juridicisms," Burke said. "In the Apostolic Signatura's experience, however, it is clear that if the servants of justice know the process and follow it attentively … the task of the tribunal, which is certainly burdensome in itself, becomes quite workable."

      Quoting from Blessed Pope John Paul II, the cardinal then warned against "false mercy, which is not concerned with the truth and therefore cannot serve charity, which has as its only goal the salvation of souls."

      http://ncronline.org/news/faith-parish/burke-warns-against-simplifying-annulments-false-mercy

    135. Teresina March 26, 2014 at 7:57 pm

      Cardinal Burke warns of false mercy in much the Fulton Sheen warned against tolerance:

      "The giggling giddiness of novelty, the sentimental restlessness of a mind unhinged, and the unnatural fear of a good dose of hard thinking, all conjoin to produce a group of sophomoric latitudinarians who think there is no difference between God as Cause and God as a “mental projection”; who equate Christ and Buddha, and then enlarge their broad-mindedness into a sweeping synthesis that says not only that one Christian sect is as good as another, but even that one world-religion is just as good as another.  The great god “Progress” is then enthroned on the altars of fashion, and as the hectic worshippers are asked, “Progress toward what?” the tolerant comes back with “More progress.”  All the while sane men are wondering how there can be progress without direction and how there can be direction without a fixed point.  And because they speak of a “fixed point”, they are said to be behind the times, when really they are beyond the times  mentally and spiritually. 

      In the face of this false broadmindedness, what the world needs is intolerance.  The world seems to have lost entirely the faculty of distinguishing between good and bad, the right and the wrong.  There are some minds that believe that intolerance is always wrong, because they make “intolerance” mean hate, narrow-mindedness, and bigotry.  These same minds believe that tolerance is always right because, for them, it means charity, broadmindedness, and American good nature."

       http://www.remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/2012-1130-fulton-sheen-Plea-For-Intolerance.htm

       

    136. Rubyshine March 26, 2014 at 8:16 pm

      beyblade – hahaha yes twerking would be a new low, but then I'm of the opinion that no one should be twerking in public, and possibly even in private.

    137. Rubyshine March 26, 2014 at 10:43 pm

      Teresina – am I included in the "three of you that work in tandem and gang up on one person." again? I really don't think I've said anything offensive.

      We were having an interesting discussion, and disagreeing with each other (which is fine) then you said, " This is the real problem with the laity in the Church these days.  Most have lost the plot. " Which was aggressive and unnecessary, but I continued on with discussing the point at hand, and expressing my views.

      I really don't think that is ganging up on anybody, but perhaps you weren't including me in this, this time, in which case I'll stay out of it.

       

    138. Teresina March 27, 2014 at 9:28 am

      Rubyshine, no, I didn't include you among the three.  As Boerneges and Mrs Mac point out this blog has descended into just name calling, so I won't go into it any further.  

      I have mentioned a number of times a comment which was originally made to me by a good priest that the problem in the Church today is that there has been no catechesis more or less since the Second Vatican Council.  I notice that the Cardinal Burke has also mentioned this:

      "St Pius X saw with clarity how religious ignorance not only leads individual lives, but also to the decay of society and a lack of balanced thinking in the most serious problems," said Cardinal Raymond Leo Burke, Prefect of the Apostolic Signatura at event surrounding the Catechism of St. Pius X 100 years after its publication, by the Kulturkreis of John Henry Newman on the 24th of May.  It was organized in Seregno.

      In his "extraordinary and brilliant lectio" says Catholic writer Cristina Siccardi,  Cardinal Burke maintains of Saint Pius X (1835-1914) that "ignorance of Christian doctrine is recognized as the main cause of the decline of faith and therefore  sound catechesis is of paramount importance for the restoration of faith. It is not difficult to see how current the observations and conclusions of St. Pius X are. They are really recognizable in the motives that has led Pope Benedict XVI. to proclaim the year of the faith".

      So most people in the pews – not through any fault of their own but largely through the bishops and priests – have no real knowledge of their faith.  Therefore, when they come to judge whether things are good or bad, rather than looking at it through the eyes of the Church, they look at things through the eyes of the world and that is where we are getting this difference of opinon.

      John Whyte failed to see what Vatican2Survivor was getting at iwhen he compared St Hildagard going on a speaking and preaching tour which is a spiritual matter in keeping with her calling to a nun taking the stage which is not in keeping with her calling.  John misses the wood for the trees because he is looking at the matter through worldly eyes rather than spiritual.  If he read a bit of what St John of the Cross says then I think he might understand what Vatican2Survivor was saying and what Cardinal Burke is saying.

       

    139. Teresina March 27, 2014 at 9:33 am

      When he says "The church's rules, dogmas, and teachings are designed to be signposts.  That is also incorrect.  Dogmas, rules and teachings are not signposts but are definitive things that a Catholic needs to know love and understand and follow if their Faith is to mature and grow.

    140. Teresina March 27, 2014 at 9:35 am

      That should have read: When John Whyte says "The church's rules, dogmas, and teachings are designed to be signposts".  That is also incorrect.  Dogmas, rules and teachings are not signposts but are definitive things that a Catholic needs to know love and understand and follow if their Faith is to mature and grow.

    141. Benedicta March 27, 2014 at 9:50 am

      Dogmas, rules and teachings are not signposts but are definitive things that a Catholic needs to know love and understand and follow if their Faith is to mature and grow.

      No. This isn't possible for everyone. We aren't Islam we are Christianity.

      We need to be obedient to the Church (which is a disposition) and most importantly we need to love the Holy Trinity before all things through Holy Mother Church.

      Actually none of this requires a catechism….only the right disposition of mind and will.

    142. Teresina March 27, 2014 at 9:51 am

      Rubyshine, There is a good commentary on the lack of catechesis on the Pathos blog that John Whyte actually pointed you to:

      "It's long past time for the Catholic Church in the United States to acknowledge and address the fact that in many, possibly most, dioceses, parish-based catechesis has been an abject failure. In the vaunted Year of Faith, it should sting all of our leaders and pastors that few of the ever-dwindling percentage of Catholics in the pews on a Sunday morning could pass a basic catechetical quiz. How many Gen X Catholics could name one of the precepts of the Church or recall any one set of the Mysteries of the Rosary? How many of our teenagers could list all Ten Commandments? How many First Communicants could recite the Acts of Faith or Hope, or name the Seven Sacraments? The terrible, tragic, and fundamental truth for 21st-century Catholicism is, not many!

      It's beyond my scope here to say how devastating and even cruel it is for the Church Militant to perpetuate Her systemic failure in this area. Ignorance leads to suffering. Religious ignorance leads to eternal death.

      We are awash in a broader culture of banality, ugliness, and stupidity, and we have several generations of disciples who are completely incapable of coping with it because of their double ignorance of their faith. Double ignorance, from Plato, means they don't know, and they don't know that they don't know."

      http://www.patheos.com/Catholic/Repenting-Failure-Catechesis-Barbara-Nicolosi-05-30-2013.html

      As the writer points out the big problem is that a lot don't know that they don't know.

    143. Benedicta March 27, 2014 at 9:51 am

      It is in loving God that our faith matures because love of God makes way for Grace to work in our lives.

       

    144. Teresina March 27, 2014 at 10:05 am

      Blessed John Paul II The Great:

      "I ardently desire that this Apostolic Exhortation to the whole Church should strengthen the solidity of the faith and of Christian living, should give fresh vigor to the initiatives in hand, should stimulate creativity– with the required vigilance and should help to spread among the communities the joy of bringing the mystery of Christ to the world.

       The third lesson is that catechesis always has been and always will be a work for which the whole Church must feel responsible and must wish to be responsible. But the Church's members have different responsibilities, derived from each one's mission. Because of their charge, pastors have, at differing levels, the chief responsibility for fostering, guiding and coordinating catechesis. For his part, the Pope has a lively awareness of the primary responsibility that rests on him in this field: in this he finds reasons for pastoral concern but principally a source of joy and hope. Priests and religious have in catechesis a pre-eminent field for their apostolate. On another level, parents have a unique responsibility. Teachers, the various ministers of the Church, catechists, and also organizers of social communications, all have in various degrees very precise responsibilities in this education of the believing conscience, an education that is important for the life of the Church and affects the life of society as such. It would be one of the best results of the General Assembly of the Synod that was entirely devoted to catechesis if it stirred up in the Church as a whole and in each sector of the Church a lively and active awareness of this differentiated but shared responsibility."     

      https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=5447

    145. Teresina March 27, 2014 at 10:14 am

      Benedict XVI:

      "It is no accident that the Blessed John Paul II wished that the Catechism of the Catholic Church, a sure norm for teaching the faith and reliable source for a catechesis renewed at the sources of faith, be set on the Creed. This was to confirm and protect this core of the truths of faith, rendering it in a language that is more intelligible to the people of our time. It is the Churches’ duty to transmit the faith, communicate the Gospel, so that the truths of Christianity illuminate new cultural transformations, and Christians be able to account for the hope that carry (cf. 1 Pt 3:14). Today we live in a profoundly changed society even compared to the recent past and one that is in constant motion. The processes of secularization and a widespread nihilistic mentality, where everything is relative, have a crucial impact on the general mentality. So, life is often lived lightly, without clear ideals or sound hopes, in transient and provisional social and family ties. Above all the younger generations are not educated in the search for truth or the deeper meaning of existence that goes beyond the contingent, to a stability of affection, trust."

      Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/pope-introduces-new-weekly-catechesis-for-year-of-faith#ixzz2x6brBqup

    146. Teresina March 27, 2014 at 10:22 am

      I think this is a beautiful statement by Vatican2Survivor, which is something perhaps for meditation on during Lent.  It is a pity that John Whyte didn't seem to be able to grasp it.

      V2S is writing here of St John of the Cross:

      "His writings probe into the matter of what spiritual processes can assist, and in what ways and what can be said to be an understanding of authentic union with Christ–the only matter worthy of our thought really. He evokes ways or purification and renunciation of the senses, in a road map for one's soul inorder to lift us duly to the magnificence of Christ lifting us up in turn, to regions beyond our one erg orbit around self concerns,self image giving insights from which we can, at last, look down on the mere pinprick of the tiny earth, realm ofour honours, desires and popstar statuses, and  its innumerable variations we are subject to, and watch these disappear into nothingness".

       

    147. muerk March 27, 2014 at 10:27 am

      I have just read this thread and I feel very disappointed with some of the attitudes displayed here. The sharpness and criticism here is doing nothing to build up the Body of Christ or increase our charity and faith. Sr Christina is not our spiritual responsibility, that is left to her lawful superiors and especially her bishop. Any damage done to the Church or Sr Christina is not ours to directly deal with, however any lack of charity displayed on this thread IS very much our responsibility and I believe is the active work of the devil through a Spirit of Discord. 

       

      I would like to quote from "Divine Intimacy" by Fr Gabriel of St. Mary Magdalen, O.C.D. Meditation 270(2) – Mildness.

      Only a sincere dispassionate desire for the good of others can make a fraternal correction charitable and efficacious; it should be made with so much kindness that the person concerned feels our love for him far more than the humiliation of being corrected. This is the way Jesus treated sinners; all were cured by His love and mildness. 

       

      Please, I beg you, life as a faithful Catholic is so hard when our whole society stands against us. We need each other so much, we need to be charitable, mild and prudent with each other because the Church is our only safe haven in a sea of sin, pain, and impurity. God gave us to each other, to love one another as He loved us. If we can not be loving to each other, what hope do we have of entrancing others with the Love of Christ and helping them to accept the Gospel? You are the people I hope to spend eternity with in Heaven, please can we be loving?

    148. Benedicta March 27, 2014 at 10:36 am

      http://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2014/03/the-acid-bath-of-ingratitude

       

      I'm not saying catechesis isn't important it is…but depth of knowledge simply isn't possible for everyone but love of God is.

      In a way catechesis has to change too. I think these coming generations are drawn more to the encounter, the impact. Rather as if taking in the illumination on the monastic page which catches their breath and they bypass the text. They are open imaginations which need to be caught.  It is the same in the monastic times that the people were catechised with stained glass, icons and symbols. It think we are there again.

      Hence the impact of Sr Cristina….there is no correlation to the Singing Nun its a different generation. To not see Grace move in J-Ax was amazing to me….it was not sentiment but memory…he connected and it wasn't the music.

      Yes, the knowledge we can acquire is helpful to put flesh on the bones of faith but it doesn't make it stand upright….in some cases too much flesh makes it immovable. Hence the link on this posting.

       

    149. Benedicta March 27, 2014 at 10:37 am

      Correction….'To SEE Grace move in J-Ax……

    150. Teresina March 27, 2014 at 10:38 am

      Muerk, people have their right to an opinion as to whether something is right or wrong especially when it goes public as Sr Cristina's act did.  Some of us who are horrified by it are justified in that we think such a thing is damaging to the Church and makes a laughing stock of religious life.  That is a valid opinion and others may choose to disagree, but I think that it is wrong to label those who are trying to explain the Church's teaching as sede-vacantists, puritans, etc.  The discord is coming from different ways of interpreting the Church's teaching and a blog is of such a nature that there will always be differences of opinion but I think the labelling that goes on by some is bad.  

    151. Benedicta March 27, 2014 at 10:38 am

      Gee I like my own words so I'll put it again…

      Yes, the knowledge we can acquire is helpful to put flesh on the bones of faith but it doesn't make it stand upright….in some cases too much flesh makes it immovable.

       

    152. muerk March 27, 2014 at 10:41 am

      St John of the Cross has been mentioned, please allow me to share one of his sayings (#80). 

      Bridle your tongue and your thoughts very much, direct your affection habitually toward God, and your spirit will be divinely enkindled.

       

      God bless. 

    153. Teresina March 27, 2014 at 10:42 am

      The Church is immovable and She is based on the sound unchanging, immovable teachings of Christ.

    154. Teresina March 27, 2014 at 10:43 am

      Muerk, excellent, something for everyone to take to heart on this blog.

    155. muerk March 27, 2014 at 10:45 am

      Teresina:

      It's obvious that your care very deeply about the Church and you want to see Her "prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." I'm not saying that we should ignore the difference of opinions, just hoping that we can share them with mildness and charity. 

    156. Teresina March 27, 2014 at 10:47 am

      muerk, I totally agree with what you say.  Unfortunately, from time to time things do get heated.  If you look at any blog that happens.  If you look at any moot that happens.  Debate of its nature is combatitive but I do agree that name calling and suggesting that someone go off and set up their own blog is a no, no.

    157. Teresina March 27, 2014 at 10:51 am

      muerk, I also think if people like yourself were perhaps to comment a bit more often and add things for discussion or contemplation about St John of the Cross that would be very helpful.  That does help and deepens discussion. 

    158. muerk March 27, 2014 at 10:55 am

      It's so hard to live and act the way we know we are supposed to , but our passions come into play and we feel aggrieved and defensive. I think the hardest thing about the internet is that we can fire something off so fast and without the feedback of a person's immediate face to face reaction. Would we speak so cuttingly if the people we were speaking about or to were sitting across from us? I doubt it. 

       

      Sigh, I know myself how often I fail and how badly I act. I really do feel ashamed of myself. Thank God for Confession is all I say!!

    159. Teresina March 27, 2014 at 11:00 am

      Muerk, I think that's true and often the way things are worded – as is said of emails – they come across perhaps stronger than they are intended in the writer's mind.  Also, some things are actually said in jest in a light hearted manner but aren't taken that way and often they are a follow on from something that someone has said in an earlier post that perhaps no one else remembers.  Sometimes things aren't conveyed as well as they should be.  But when it comes to name calling then I have to say that is deliberate, one can't get away from that.  A blog can also get quite narrow and so the more joining in the better.  It seems that a lot of people read but don't comment.  Especially on the Sunday Scrum for someone to put up during Lent thoughts that they have had.  How they're doing in Lent I think would be great and it then leads on to lighter topics for discussion that probably no one can disagree on.

    160. Teresina March 27, 2014 at 11:04 am

      Muerk, for example, the comment I made about Werahiko swinging through the trees with his friends – was a light hearted reference to the fact that he believes he has descended from the apes and I don't believe that.  I think that is just a bit of fun but in a PC world it seems not to be.  

    161. muerk March 27, 2014 at 11:12 am

      Teresina:

       

      Well, I too believe that I evolved from hominids, but I'm afraid I'm never going to have the sheer joy of just swinging through the forest which is a great shame  

       

      Nuance is terribly hard to convey over text, and a light hearted ribbing can come across as cruel or derogatory. I don't think it's about being politically correct so much as we just can't see the twinkle in the eye that softens the words and shows that they aren't meant. 

    162. Teresina March 27, 2014 at 11:22 am

      Yes, Muerk, I think that's right – the tongue in the cheek can't be seen – but often if you read back it can be.  I think often posts aren't read properly at all.  Someone a few posts back was taken up on something which they said they had said in jest and were surprised that someone had been upset by the comment.  

    163. Teresina March 27, 2014 at 2:47 pm

      "Now a nun performing an Alicia Keys song in The Voice of Italy has, understandably – because when you read that as a headline you want to see the video – gone viral. Italian TV producers must have been salivating when the smiling Sister Cristina Scuccia, dressed in unflattering black habit and full veil, not only auditioned for the show but performed a very unholy version of Keys' No One, complete with Alicia-style warbling and some un-nun-like dance moves in her fabulously unfashionable laced black shoes.

      There is, of course, something inherently comic about a Catholic nun, whom we imagine lives a strict and penitential life, observing a vow of poverty and perhaps even silence, sleeping in a cell with only a crucifix for adornment and only ever using her singing voice for the Ave Maria, suddenly carrying on like a sexy R'n'B star from Manhattan.

      But even without the trappings, I think we would go on finding the idea of the singing nun seductive.

      Maybe it is because we suspect that, given half a chance, this other-worldly creature too would be as tempted as the rest of us by a chance at fame, riches and celebrity. Paradoxically, it is the life of self-denial and devotion to others which is now so extraordinary and the taking part in a televised singing contest before judges and a screaming audience which has become banal. It's still a great story, though. Stand by for Sister Cristina, rock goddess, the movie."

      http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/25/why-singing-nuns-comic-italian-voice

       

    164. Benedicta March 27, 2014 at 3:28 pm

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notker_Wolf

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZvJ96GB59A&feature=youtu.be

      Boy o boy you learn something new everyday! Who is that playing in the rock band….?

      Notker Wolf – the current Abbot Primate of the Benedictine Order.

    165. Teresina March 27, 2014 at 8:16 pm

      No clearer sign of how the Church has gone down the tubes since Vatican II!

    166. Teresina March 27, 2014 at 8:35 pm

      St Teresa of Avila encountered the lax conditions of convents and reformed them::

      “Her progress was not helped by the lax conditions of the convent. [Robert Ellsberg tells us in his book, Blessed Among All Women] The strictness of the original Carmelite rule had been so mitigated over the years that the convent in Avila had come to resemble a boarding house for wealthy maidens more than a house of prayer.  The enclosure was not seriously maintained, and the nuns spent much of their time in the parlor entertaining visitors and gentlemen callers.” [iii]

      Teresa loathed the mediocrity of her spiritual life, and realized that she was “torn between God and the world.”

      “At the age of thirty-nine, however, [Ellsberg reports], Teresa had an experience of conversion.  It was sparked when she happened to glance, one day, at an image of the suffering Christ on the cross.  Instantly she was filled with loathing for the mediocrity of her spiritual life, and she determined to devote herself more seriously to a life of prayer.  Almost immediately upon this resolution she began to experience the sensation of God’s love, transforming her from within.”

      Three years after her conversion,

      “she decided to establish a new reformed Carmelite house, returning to the spirit of the original primitive Rule of Carmel…  Her new community was known as the Discalced (or ‘shoeless’) Carmelites.  In fact the nuns wore hemp sandals, but their name referred to the strict poverty that was a feature of Teresa’s reform.  Her nuns were to seek no endowments but to live entirely by alms and their own labor.  A strict enclosure was to be maintained, along with a vegetarian diet and a rigorous schedule of prayer.”[iv]

      The reform spread, as did Teresa’s reputation.  Ellsberg describes her as “one of the towering figures in Christian history”"

    167. Rubyshine March 27, 2014 at 9:17 pm

      Teresina – I just read through this article. http://www.patheos.com/Catholic/Repenting-Failure-Catechesis-Barbara-Nicolosi-05-30-2013.html

      I had to go and look up just about all the things the author listed as "basics" of knowledge. :)

      The article did get me wondering though about the nature of modern education in general. I'm a bit of a fan of rote learning, which I know is a terribly unfashionable thing to say, but I think it's good to have basic building blocks of knowledge that you can simply refer back to as needed in your brain. It's those basic building blocks that allow you to the start analysing and drawing conclusions.

      I wonder how much of the catechism not being taught as it once was, tied into modern ideas on education.

      I think though, you need it all. You need the absolute basics of knowledge. You need opportunities to have your heart opened to the faith. I agree in part with what Benedicat says, "In a way catechesis has to change too. I think these coming generations are drawn more to the encounter, the impact." But I also think that is human nature, that once you have an encounter with something to want to learn all that you can about it. It's then that you're able to see the relevance of all the rules. You need opportunities to put the rules and teachings together with your own experiences.

      I think the author of the article is spot on when she says, "All are going to need to share what they are hearing and what it means to them." because it's that real connection of the teachings to yourself and the world around you that matters.

      And this, "Our Hollywood RCIA program is very rigorous and demanding. We not only require an hour or two of catechism study every week, but we usually stipulate two Catholic novels be read a month during the program. We read directly from the documents of Vatican II, and regularly work in other texts on moral theology, history, and Scripture. It's almost too much for the learners but the powerful subtext they absorb is that the Catholic faith is rich and deep and much, much smarter than you are." this I would sign up for in a heartbeat.

      I like also her praticial solutions of how catechism could be approached within parishes. It certainly wouldn't be easy, and it would be frought with difficulty, but it is a solution I've not come across before.

    168. John Whyte March 27, 2014 at 9:32 pm

      Benedicta, 

      I could understand the works of the heavy music monk.  I'm not sure if that is good or bad rock music :P  

      The song had so much promise… but in the end kept repeating itself.  Which was a shame.  Also a shame that the rest of the band weren't monks also.  

      Over in WYD in Sydney there was a rapping monk.  Which as a musical art holds about as much interest for me as embroidery.  

    169. Teresina March 27, 2014 at 9:33 pm

      Yes, Rubyshine, I'm a fan of rote learning too.  It does seem to be coming back in some areas of education.  It's unfortunate we're not getting much from the sermons as we once would because many adults don't get the opportunities that some of the young people get.  I have a friend who has come back to the Church but she has had to, like yourself, more or less find out everything for herself.  I have often wondered what the Catholic Inquiry Centre booklets are like – they're free and it seems to me that would be one source for those who may be returning to the Faith and want an over-view, rather than be swamped with everything all at once.   

    170. John Whyte March 27, 2014 at 9:41 pm

      Rubyshine,

      I don't think the 'learning problem' is unique to catholicism.  At my time at university (only a blink of my eye back in history) the same thing was obviously happening.  Real knowledge was being abandoned for a very dumbed down curriculum to 'meet the students where they were'.  

      I have friends who went through law school with me that I wouldn't trust to read a tennancy agreement let alone give any form of legal advice (but who still have LLBs).  Some courses resisted this, and tought by a combination of rote learning coupled with practical application, these were the 'hard courses'.  

      My own preparation of initiation focused very heavily on the catachism and reading it cover to cover, 

      If you are interested in memorizing some aspects of the faith, there is a very good book Memorize the Faith http://www.amazon.com/Memorize-Faith-Most-Anything-Else/dp/1933184175 which if you are in Hamilton I can lend you a copy.  It's a guide for the memorizing and very effective for all those 'list style things' that are handy to be able to recite (as opposed to googling)

    171. Teresina March 27, 2014 at 9:41 pm

      Also, I agree with the statement: the Catholic faith is rich and deep and much, much smarter than you are.  It is so beautiful, rich in spirituality, and we are so lucky to have it.  If you have not read Journal of a Soul by St Theresa of Lisieux I strongly recommend it.  There is so much in what she writes.  I thought it astounding that one so young as she could, who lived a life of simplicity in a convent with very little knowldge of the world, could write: Therese quotes Archimedes as saying,"Give me a lever and a fulcrum,""and I'll shift the world." She went on to explain that "the saints have really enjoyed the privilege he asked for; the fulcrum God told them to use was Himself, nothing less than Himself, and the lever was prayer."  

      Of course it had to be divinely inspired!

    172. Rubyshine March 27, 2014 at 9:47 pm

      Yes I've wondered about the inquiry centre booklets too, but have never quite got around to ordering them.

      I think the issue of getting overwhelmed with everything is a very real one, and even just knowing where to start.

      The reality is, is that you simply can't learn it all in a day. I get an email on a part of the catechism everyday. The idea being that you cover the whole thing in the course of a year. I came across the link here http://proudtobecatholic.org.nz/ Some bits I realise I already know, and some I know in part, but it's quite good to read bits and pieces, and often I ignore them emails for days at a time and read a chunk in one go.

      I've just relaxed into taking my time with the whole process.

    173. Teresina March 27, 2014 at 10:05 pm

      That idea of getting a bit of the catechism sounds like a very good idea.  I will pass that link on to my friend.  It's quite amazing how God works.  She has actually got her sister back practising now, even though she lives overseas.  Her sister had a problem with going to confession so my friend prayed about it and was delighted when her sister skyped her recently to say she had plucked up the courage to go.  Her sister was so pleased she had been able to finally get there.

    174. Rubyshine March 27, 2014 at 10:10 pm

      John I agree it's not just catholicism that has suffered through a dumbing down of education. In fact I could go on a huge rant about the downfall of large aspects of society over the last 30 or 40 yrs if I thought it was appropriate.

      Thank you for the offer of the loan of the book,  but I am flat tack busy with all sorts of things at the moment.  I may well take you up on the offer at some point, though.

      Teresina – that was one of the lines that stood out to me as well. Do you think there's a modern rejection of anything being "smarter" than us. I don't just mean in terms of religion either, but a general societal attitude of, not wanting others to tell them they're wrong, or to show them up as not knowing something, that we're all as smart as each other.

       Perhaps a lack of humility or just general arrogance. It's like the quite nice notion of us all being equal has turned into, an inability to acknowledge the gifts and knowledge of other people. Some seem to take it as an attack on their own value if someone else knows things.

      But perhaps I'm ranting about society!

       

    175. John Whyte March 27, 2014 at 10:29 pm

      Rubyshine,

      CS Lewis has a collection of essays called "Screwtape proposes a Toast" of which a copy (which seems to be full) is at http://screwtapeblogs.wordpress.com/2009/06/30/screwtape-proposes-a-toast/

      There is so much that links in with your last comment, but the most relevant is 

      The feeling I mean is of course that which prompts a man to say I’m as good as you.

      The first and most obvious advantage is that you thus induce him to enthrone at the centre of his life a good, solid, resounding lie. I don’t mean merely that his statement is false in fact, that he is no more equal to everyone he meets in kindness, honesty, and good sense than in height or waist measurement. I mean that he does not believe it himself. No man who says I’m as good as you believes it. He would not say it if he did. The St. Bernard never says it to the toy dog, nor the scholar to the dunce, nor the employable to the bum, nor the pretty woman to the plain. The claim to equality, outside the strictly political field, is made only by those who feel themselves to be in some way inferior. What it expresses is precisely the itching, smarting, writhing awareness of an inferiority which the patient refuses to accept.

      And therefore resents. Yes, and therefore resents every kind of superiority in others; denigrates it; wishes its annihilation. Presently he suspects every mere difference of being a claim to superiority. No one must be different from himself in voice, clothes, manners, recreations, choice of food: “Here is someone who speaks English rather more clearly and euphoniously than I — it must be a vile, upstage, la-di-da affectation. Here’s a fellow who says he doesn’t like hot dogs — thinks himself too good for them, no doubt. Here’s a man who hasn’t turned on the jukebox — he’s one of those ******* highbrows and is doing it to show off. If they were honest-to-God all-right Joes they’d be like me. They’ve no business to be different. It’s undemocratic.”

      Now, this useful phenomenon is in itself by no means new. Under the name of Envy it has been known to humans for thousands of years. But hitherto they always regarded it as the most odious, and also the most comical, of vices. Those who were aware of feeling it felt it with shame; those who were not gave it no quarter in others. The delightful novelty of the present situation is that you can sanction it — make it respectable and even laudable — by the incantatory use of the word democratic.

      It's worth reading in full, its short and exceptionally insightful.

    176. Abenader March 27, 2014 at 10:32 pm

      Grocergirl makes an interesting (to me at least and maybe even to YOU) statement "…………… I wish some of the contributors here would give thought to the sort of publicity they are giving to New Zealand Catholicism" 

      So my question is, how do the YOU view the situation of the Catholic church in NZ? 0f course, YOU may not know the entire picture but possibly have some sort of 'sense' where it's at.

    177. Rubyshine March 27, 2014 at 10:37 pm

      Oh and Teresina, I sympathise with your friend's sister. Last time I went to confession, I sat in the church for two hours before I talked myself into going.

      John – that is fabulous, and much more eloquent than myself. Thank you for the reference. It's obviously not a new thing, but I wonder if, in current day, it's more aggressively expressed than in perhaps more courteous times.

    178. Rubyshine March 27, 2014 at 10:42 pm

      Abenader, I absolutely have no depth of understanding of the situation in the NZ chuch. Before I found this blog, I was in a happy little, "all is right with the world" mass attending bubble. 

      I would be interested to know how many regular mass attendees have no idea of any "situation" good or bad. But simply attend mass. (which I don't mean as a negative)

    179. Teresina March 27, 2014 at 11:44 pm

      Rubyshine, I think this idea that anybody can do anything is wrong because it doesn't take into account an individual's abilities.  I also think the idea of awarding someone something for not getting 1st, 2nd or 3rd is wrong too because it takes away the desire to achive.  I think everyone should be given encouragement of course, but everyone has limitations and to tell someone that they can achieve something that they don't have the ability or natural talent for is setting them up to fall to earth with a thud.  Of course, I am sure everybody has a talent for something and finding out that person's ability and encouraging them in that is the best way to go.

      My cousin and I were just discussing recently the fact that we both had to do gym at school, when neither of us had any abillity in that area.  We had to do vaulting and all those sorts of things.  I am pretty sure I never cleared a vault.  I don't know how I got around it – probably ran around it.  My cousin said to me how she hated that gym class and so did I.  I also hated milk – warm milk every day at school the kids were expected to have.  Thanks to mum I got excused from that.

      But remembering my days at school although we were encouraged to achieve we had limited choice of what we could do, subject-wise.  Things are so much more advanced these days and so much scope to develop talent in different ways.  Mrs Mac may well have gone through the same experience.  I remember thinking that some subjects for me were a waste of time, but in hindsight I suppose they did provide a good practical base for a working life.  At least I have to say we didn't have unrealistic goals thrust upon us.

      I never excelled in sewing.  My one bad experience with a nun was in the sewing room – not that bad really – but I remember the nun watching as I struggled to find the bias on the material (I still don't know how to find it) and she said 'Teresina, have you ever seen a snail at work".  Quite amusing I suppose when I look back.

      My first day at college I took up my chosen place in the back row – thinking that was the best spot to be. But it wasn't.  It was a fairly hot day and Sister Eulalia as I remember wanted the window open.  So she said, "Girlie, girlie, open that window".  So I went up and grasped the cords and tugged and pulled but the window just wouldn't budge (it had probably been painted in during the holidays I suspect).  I kept on struggling with it and Sister said, "Girlie, if you're going to take all day about it sit down".  So I did.  She had this absolute look of surprise on her face.  I think she thought I would put more muscle into opening that window – but I knew it was never going to budge.

      The nuns were really good, by and large.  Not the ogres that you read about at all.   

    180. Teresina March 28, 2014 at 12:02 am

      Abenader, in some ways it seems to have improved and in some ways it seems to have gone backwards.  When I say it seems to have improved, I'm thinking that the Mass has become more reverent in some parishes, but less so in others.  How long that will go on, though, I don't know.  Since Pope Francis has been Pope there seems to be a bit of an attempt by some to go back to the 1970s.  That may be just temporary.  However, reading a paper put out by the Passionist Families, based on their interpretation of what Pope Francis has had to say, it seems to me that we could be in for a rocky ride.  A lot of parishes have Passionist groups and the laity will be influenced by this.  Here are a couple of excerpts:

      Cardinal Raymond Burke, well known for his ornate liturgical vestments and 
      conservative views, has been replaced by a pastoral man, Cardinal Wuerl in the 
      powerful Congregation of Bishops which is responsible for the appointment of 
      new Bishops. Francis has made it clear that Bishops are pastors, not princes. 
      Similarly, he told officials who are judges on church tribunals. “You are 
      essentially pastors. As you carry out your judicial work, do not forget that you are 
      pastors. Behind every file, every position, every case, there are persons who wait 
      for justice”.

      Pope Francis has spoken strongly about the need for Vatican decentralization 
      and reform of the papacy, in line with the vision of Vatican 2, stressing that local 
      Bishop’s Conferences should have "genuine doctrinal authority". He said he has 
      found it “amazing” to see complaints about “lack of orthodoxy” flowing into the 
      Vatican offices in Rome from conservative Catholics around the world. They ask 
      the Vatican to investigate or discipline their priests, bishops or nuns. Such 
      complaints, he said, “are better dealt with locally,” or else the Vatican offices risk 
      becoming “institutions of censorship”. 

      An inclusive God for an inclusive Church 
      “Who am I to judge?” Pope Francis gave this answer in response to a reporter’s 
      question about the status of gay priests in the Church. More than anything else 
      he has said, this exchange stood out as being entirely different from what has 
      been the style of the past two men who were Pope between 1978 and 2013. 
      Cardinal Schönborn said after the Austrian Bishops ad limina visit with Pope 
      Francis, that he regretted that the Austrian bishops haven't dared to speak out 
      openly on necessary church reforms in the past. “We didn’t have the courage to 
      address the need for greater decentralization and to strengthen local churches' 
      responsibilities” 

       

       

      ttp://www.passionistfamily.org.nz/resources/downloads/Francis%20Pastoral%20emphasis%202014.pdf 

      There have been warnings that Pope Francis' speaking off the cuff was giving the impression of a change in the Church's teachings.  Certainly the Passionist Family Group has leapt on to the worst of what he has had to say.

    181. Teresina March 28, 2014 at 12:35 am

      More from the Passionist Family Group:

      "Aparecida concluded: “Knowing Jesus Christ by faith is our joy, following Him 
      is our grace and transmitting this treasure to others is a mission that the 
      Lord, by choosing and calling us, has entrusted with us”. Aparecida proposed 
      an encounter with Jesus that transforms a Christianity based on tradition to a 
      Christianity based on conviction. Francis has centered on this message that Jesus 
      is the best news that could have happened to us and that we should follow Him 
      and always remember that Jesus is the centre, not the Pope”.  …

      Francis, in the tradition of the Aparecida document is calling for evangelizing 
      (communicating and sharing the good news of Catholic faith), rather than 
      proselytizing (seeking to convert others to Catholic faith). In an interview with 
      Eugenio Scalfari in September 2013, Francis said. "Proselytism is solemn 
      nonsense, it makes no sense. We need to get to know each other, listen to each 
      other and improve our knowledge of the world around us. Sometimes after a 
      meeting I want to arrange another one because new ideas are born and I 
      discover new needs. This is important: to get to know people, listen, expand the 
      circle of ideas. The world is crisscrossed by roads that come closer together and 
      move apart, but the important thing is that they lead towards the Good." …

      Many times within the PFGM we have been frustrated that priests or parish 
      pastoral councils have been unable to see that we are involved in mission. It is 
      the creating of community that enables the gospel to come alive, and as Francis 
      warns, it is easy for people to get focused on outdated structures and misguided 
      priorities (including high brow liturgies)
      while the isolation of people grows and 
      their belonging to the community is no longer a concern for those responsible for 
      pastoral care. 

      The need to move away from Centralisation 
      In addressing evangelizing, Francis has noted that centralization of the Church 
      can harm evangelization. “I do not believe that the papal magisterium should be 
      expected to offer a definitive or complete word on every question which affects 
      the Church and the world. It is not advisable for the Pope to take the place of 
      local Bishops in the discernment of every issue which arises in their territory. In 
      this sense, I am conscious of the need to promote a sound 'decentralization
      '” 
      (#16). 
      Francis said in August 2013, that he has found it “amazing” to see complaints 
      about “lack of orthodoxy” flowing into the Vatican offices in Rome from 
      conservative Catholics around the world. They ask the Vatican to investigate or 
      discipline their priests, bishops or nuns. Such complaints, he said, “are better 
      dealt with locally,” or else the Vatican offices risk becoming “institutions of 
      censorship”. Francis recognises that there are layers of evangelization, such as 
      “those who regularly take part in community worship and gather on the Lord’s 
      day to be nourished by his word and by the bread of eternal life”.[11] In this 
      category we can also include those members of faithful who preserve a deep and 
      sincere faith, expressing it in different ways, but seldom taking part in worship. 
      Another layer is “the baptised whose lives do not reflect the demands of 
      Baptism”,[12] who lack a meaningful relationship to the Church and no longer 
      experience the consolation born of faith. The Church, in her maternal concern, 
      tries to help them experience a conversion which will restore the joy of faith to 
      their hearts and inspire a commitment to the Gospel.”

      http://www.passionistfamily.org.nz/resources/downloads/Evangelising%20and%20the%20PFG's.pdf

       

       

    182. Teresina March 28, 2014 at 12:51 am

      The new Archbishop of Liverpool:

      ""Vatican II envisaged that the Mass would ordinarily be celebrated in Latin" says Bishop Mc Mahon:

      At the very least Latin is as important for our culture and worship as Hebrew is for the Jewish people. Since Vatican II, Mass in the vernacular language (English in our case) has become widespread, but it began as, and remains, a concession. Vatican II envisaged that the Mass would ordinarily be celebrated in Latin, and it stressed the need for the faithful to be able to say or sing together in Latin the parts of the Mass which pertain to them, and it commended the use of Gregorianchant, saying that it should be given pride of place in liturgical functions. "

    183. Teresina March 28, 2014 at 1:03 am

      Actually the style and expression of grocersgirl using the expression: "wailing and gnashing of teeth" reminds me of someone called Aida who used that expression quite a lot, which explains a lot …

    184. Teresina March 28, 2014 at 10:10 am

      I've always known that communion in the hand was an indult which can be rescinded at any time, but I didn't know that the Mass in the vernacular was also an indult as stated by Archbishop McMahon – the new bishop of Liverpool.  I have read that Pope Benedict had the idea of having the consecration of the OF Mass in Latin said ad orientam.  I think that would be a big improvement.

      For those who attend the EF Mass I was delighted to read the following:

      "

      Tomorrow, 28 March 2014, will mark the official erection of the Personal Parish of Blessed John Henry Newman in the Archdiocese of Melbourne, Australia. The parish will serve all those in the Archdiocese, which is Australia’s largest, wishing to worship in the Extraordinary Form.

      Please see here for a report and Archbishop Hart’s decree on the Archdiocese’s website.

      The personal parish will be accommodated in the church and facilities of St Aloysius’ Parish, Caulfield North (on Balaclava Road, for those acquainted with Melbourne). Actually, Mass in the traditional rite has been offered there every day for more than ten years."

      http://catholicismpure.wordpress.com/

    185. Teresina March 28, 2014 at 10:33 am

      Rubyshine, you may be interested in looking at the Penny Catechism at some time.  It is a simple little Catechism – most of which is unchanged even today.

      http://www.magnificatpress.com/pdf/Penny.pdf

    186. Vatican2Survivor March 28, 2014 at 9:04 pm

      Abenader

       at this stage in perceiving the Church–its a matter of  finding a appropriate or tolerable lens to look through–what dims the glass darkly is that you have to learning to be patient enuff and live with the guitar Masses and the Sesame street educated musicians accompanied by the infantile, nursery rhyme posturing people from the charasmatic movement. Sadly,these bands of precious souls ordinarily would struggle to find an audience.Underpinning this, is the point  of tension is that to date, I've yet to be fully trained and mesmerized by popular media cultural modernist clergy driven preparations inane teachings of the politically correct nonsense to, and am yet to accept their outrageous diminutions of Traditional Catholicism and lies as being Truth as the Vatican 2 liberal intrusions into my consciousness that form and are called the Novus Ordo Mass do not, and can never fit my own perception of the world, as I know deep down in my heart the evidences of the elegance of the Latin Mass the treasures contained in Catholic Medieval Mystical theology and the ineffable Love of the Christ reveal it all to be so much of an inadequate human  banal on the spot production as Pope Benedict once put it.

    187. Teresina March 28, 2014 at 11:24 pm

      Vatican2Survivor, without doubt the music at Sunday Mass with guitars and in some parishes even bongo drums is not appropriate for Mass as it is secular music.  Two young women have put out a great video with explanation as to why secular music, such as we routinely get at Mass has been prohibited in many Vatican documents.  They also have references as to where choirs can avail themselves of online resources to help them with chant, etc.  However, I don't hold out much hope for there to be much of a change here in the Hamilton Diocese where guitar music is rife and even the children at school are taught nothing else.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XTHFbM4ZFM&list=PLftc2VaB0OzEDdFjaLhqk6o53L8w9UhcJ

    188. Werahiko March 28, 2014 at 11:26 pm

      Hey! I do the satire!

    189. Teresina March 29, 2014 at 11:37 am

      LEADING BY EXAMPLE: a remarkable video of Pope Francis going to confession – the best move in his pontificate so far:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=BKHKmEtpWao

    190. Teresina March 29, 2014 at 4:04 pm

      Werahiko, if you do satire then you should not use God's name:

      Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain (KJV, also "You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God" (NRSV) and variants) is one of the Ten Commandments. It is a prohibition of blasphemy, specifically, the misuse or "taking in vain" of the name of the God of IsraelExodus 20:7 reads:

      "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain." (KJV).[1]

    191. Werahiko March 29, 2014 at 6:19 pm

      A most interesting and original interpretation. 

    192. Rubyshine March 29, 2014 at 10:57 pm

      Teresina – thank you for the reference to the penny catechism, I've heard it meantioned here many times, but never thought to see if it was online.

      I just wanted to comment about what you said about school children being taught nothing but guitar music. I was at St Mary's on Tuesday, and there were some students from St John's and Sacred Heart. They had two hymns The Lourdes Hymn, and Ave Maria Gratia Plena (which to my mind are lovely) accompanied by an organ. 

    193. the enthusiastic border-collie March 30, 2014 at 10:43 am

      How many checked the penny catechism linked above? It reads so clearly compared to the private experience based, conversational, between-God-and-me, constructivist religion we have been taught at high school, from lecterns and newspapers such as welcom.

    194. Vatican2Survivor March 30, 2014 at 11:55 am

      'Enthuisiastic border collie'–love the name—used to take that kind of dog for walks on Raglan beach.he knew the best spots by heart. He could spot a rotten fish washed up on the beach and other things too, long before we could. And love the enthuisastic bit–in greek in theos –in God. Love your comment too.Thanks..

    195. Teresina March 30, 2014 at 5:15 pm

      The enthusiastic border-collie, you have summed it up so succinctly.  With the Penny Catechism we know what we believe and what is expected from us as Catholics.

      Rubyshine, I am very glad to hear that you have come across two actual hymns.  I have never heard any school children at Mass with anything other than guitar-led secular beat music which, as the two young women state on the video here, the Church has stated this kind of music is not acceptable at Mass.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XTHFbM4ZFM&list=PLftc2VaB0OzEDdFjaLhqk6o53L8w9UhcJ

    196. Teresina March 30, 2014 at 5:45 pm

      Vatican2Suvivor, we need a few more border collies to spot the rotten fish – well said!

    197. Teresina March 30, 2014 at 8:51 pm

      Rubyshine, further to your point about students from St John's and Sacred Heart singing hymns, I attended Mass at the Hamilton Cathedral today where they had a choir accompanied by the organ.  The hymns they sang were beautiful – even a Latin hymn, almost Gregorian Change and at the end of Mass Crown Him with Many Thorns.  The difference to the Mass was profound and people actually joined in the hymns which I often don't see with the modern secular type of music.  

      After Mass a young man stood up and talked about a pro life march that is taking place in Hamilton on the Wednesday of Holy Week at 12.15pm leaving from Memorial Park.  He spoke very eloquently, and to hear a young man speak that way is very inspiring.  

    198. Vatican2Survivor March 31, 2014 at 3:49 am

      Teresina

      Yes and we need more learning the Penny Catechism off by heart–especially the points coinnecting to the H

    199. Teresina April 1, 2014 at 8:52 pm

      Vatican2Survivor, yes, we do.  It's great the Penny Catechism is on line especially when we know how poor the RCIA programme is.

      Here is an outline on the Penny Catechism from the site Catholic Treasury which explains Catholic belief, prayer and spiritual reading which is a very good site for those who want to understand more about the faith.

      http://www.catholictreasury.info/catechism/index.php

    200. Teresina April 1, 2014 at 8:57 pm

      Also, here is another great site with questions and answers about the Faith – anything you need answered is likely to be on here:

      http://www.radioreplies.info/